Episode 7: Prison Writing Part 1

February 11th, 2019
Hosted by Brian Birnbaum
Guest: Caits Meissner, Devin Kelly
Produced by Katie Rainey
Transcripts by Jonathan Kay

In the seventh episode of the Animal Riot Podcast, we welcome Caits Meissner, Director of the PEN America Prison Writing Program, and Devin Kelly, co-founder of the Animal Riot Reading Series (OR: Original Animal). While sipping on our earthy Kratom teas, we discuss all things prison writing, the ever-exigent topic of criminal justice and prison reform, and take a few minutes to visit wonderful poems from a couple of writers in Mrs. Meissner's cohort.

>> Narrator: Welcome to the Animal Riot hour brought to you by Animal Riot, a literary press for books that matter. This marks the first episode of a two part series for prison reform which will inevitably lead to issues of social justice and the like.

Right now we are with Devin Kelly, whom some of our listeners might remember is the OG of the Animal Riot reading series, along with Katie. The OA, right. The Original Animal. My producers... our producers are reminding me. And Caits Meissner, right, right. She just told us about how everyone was fucking up her name on the last radio show so I wanted to make sure. And the director of the prison writing program at Pen America. I also want to make a bad dad joke about how your parents loved you so much that they wanted to name you as if there were two of you (chuckles).

>> Caits: It's a nickname

>> Brian: (laughs) I see. Caits, I see

>> Caits: I have a government (laughs)

>> Brian: (laughs) Alright, so I'm going to do a rant about this hour's brand of fuckery which is brought to you by governmental cronyism, I guess I'd say. Basically we got representatives of federal agencies such as the FDA and DEA crusading state legislative bodies to impose a ban on kratom, kra-tome, krit-krat? Kratom, we're just going to go with that. Nobody knows how to say it. It's a Southeast Asian plant with pain-relieving and mood-enhancing properties. And it would be disingenuous to deny that it has habit-forming potential but as it would to say that sugar, alcohol, and legal opioids don't, so you know. But kratom has offered hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of opioid users a safer alternative whether it to be life-threatening addictions, suboxone, and/or a real need for pain management. So like many of the government's impulses to control our behavior, I find it ironic that amidst a self-proclaimed opioid crisis they're concerned about banning a substance, kratom, that's caused less total casualties than an hour's worth of opioid overdoses. So we're here drinking kratom, right now. 75% of us. But yeah I'm going to shut up about that now. I just thought it was apropos because if they do ban it then that will throw hundreds of thousands of people into the group arbitrarily known as criminals. So yeah, let's drink it while it's legal and into its illegality. Cheers everyone. Ok so let's have you guys introduce yourselves now that I have rambled for 20 minutes. Devin?

>> Devin: I am Devin Kelly. I am a writer and teacher living in New York City. My bio is getting shorter each time I appear (laughter)

>> Brian: I like that. At some point you're going to implode into a non-physical, spiritual entity

>> Devin: Yep. I am. I am, who is

>> Caits: Or become a symbol. Like the writer formerly known as Devin Kelly.

>> Brian: Oh beautiful. Beautiful.

>> Caits: It's better than a long bio. When it's read at an event and you're like "my bio didn't look that long when I submitted it. Can you please stop?"

>> Devin: I think the goal of any writer is to actually have your bio get shorter.

>> Caits: I think so to

>> Devin: I think until you're simply your name. And then simply nothing.

>> Caits: This is getting pretty existential pretty fast

>> Brian: (laughs) Yeah. And now I want to comment on how those bios will have 80 publications listed. Like, really? We get it, you're good. Like we got it, anyway (laughs). Go ahead, Caits?

>> Caits: I'm Caits Meissner. Not my real name

>> Brian: Mice-ner?

>> Caits: "Mice" or "Mize" ner. It's "mice"-ner but people do "mize"-ner and it feels fine. It feels great. Caits was my nickname growing up that I hated and then I claimed it...

>> Brian: Oh, I love it.

>> Caits: ...in my adulthood because it made me feel warm that everyone would call me it. And it seemed to fit me. I am also a writer, poet primarily, illustrator, coming back to that after many years, a long-time educator, and currently working, as you said, in the prison injustice writing initiatives at Pen America.

>> Brian: Is that what it's formerly called? So I totally butchered it? What did I call it?

>> Caits: Prison injustice writing program, that's what it's called.

>> Brian: Ok cool

>> Caits: I just put initiatives in there. It sounds a little more exciting

>> Brian: Yes. Iniaties, yes. Agency, yeah

>> Devin: Yeah

>> Brian: So let's start with that. Or maybe I should prelude that I am going to try to get involved with all of this. So yeah, tell us what you do and all the the things you do and why you do them

>> Caits: Well that's a lot of things. I can start with maybe what I do at Pen or what Pen is. What the programs are at Pen. And then we can also talk as a writer how to get involved because before I was at Pen I was teaching in prisons and I also did a tour for my book in prisons.

>> Brian: Oh, I really like that

>> Caits: Yeah

>> Devin: You've been all over

>> Caits: But it's not that easy to do, actually interestingly. But we'll get into that

>> Brian: No, I can imagine

>> Caits: So at Pen we have two primary programs. One is the prison writing program. It is a 4 decade old project that is exclusively run through the mail so much mail comes onto my desk every day. And through that we have a handbook for writers in prison that we are actually rewriting starting in the winter which is a very exciting project. We send about 500 for free of those a month to folks in prison. Anyone who requests it can get it for free. Through that, people find out about our prison writing awards. Those have been going on for 30 years. We award cash prizes, publication, for the first time we did an annual anthology this year. Molly Crabapple did the cover. I'm very proud of it.

>> Brian: And who is Molly Crabapple for those of us that don't know?

>> Caits: Oh she's someone that I really admire. She's primarily an artist, illustrator, but also a writer. I read her memoir "Drawing in Blood" and she has a new book out that is co-written with somebody else. Anyway, look her up, she's really fantastic. She's social justice oriented. Really interesting person

>> Brian: I told you we would get there. Devin told us (laughs)

>> Caits: Well justice is embedded into the conversation because criminal justice, you know, there's the word 'justice' right there.

>> Brian: Of course, they conflate

>> Caits: Yeah, pretty debatable in our system. So the last thing in there is that people can join our mentor program through the contest and that is a 3 time exchange, at least that's what's asked, with a working writer on the outside. And then many times those mentorships go on for much longer. We have about 250 active at any time but it fluctuates. So that's the prison writing program as it has been for many years. And I am very proud to be overseeing, with my colleague Robby Pollack, who really takes charge of that program's day-to-day and visions, the future of it, as well.

The other side of it is brand new. It's the Writing for Justice Fellowship which was funded by Agnes Gund's Arts For Justice Fund. And we awarded, we said 6 then we awarded 10 writers: currently, formerly, and not ever incarcerated to write about critical issues connected to mass incarceration.

Through that, of course, there's many many other things being done. We do really incredible multimedia community-oriented events. Yeah, a lot of things coming up in the future that's not on the record yet

>> Brian: So yeah, this just happens to be one of the things that you said last. But I do like the idea of not only people that have been in the prison system being able to write about this stuff too. We have talked about this in some of our earlier episodes about how it's tough these days where if you are not in this demographic, are you allowed to write about something like that?

>> Caits: Yeah

>> Brian: But I think it's important that if you're passionate about it then get involved, you know?

>> Caits: Yeah. Well I think about it as an ecosystem and that we actually need everyone to care about because the system is massive and we need people who have no stake in it to give a shit about it to change it

>> Brian: Right, I feel the same way

>> Caits: But I think a lot of the pushback or where a lot of that energy comes from is that people's voices have been historically left out. So it's an ethical line you walk with how we make sure there are seats at the table with people that have lived and experienced it. Their stories are expert. They're important. So put them in a conversation with folks who don't necessarily have the lived experience but have other skills, ideas, identities, experience that they can bring to the table

>> Brian: Yeah. I guess what I am most curious about is that people involved with this program especially... and we talked about the vocabulary like inmates, prisoners, we didn't know exactly what to agree on... but anyways, what kind of transition have you seen with them being in the program while incarcerated and then afterwards? Are they still involved in some way? How has it affected their lives? What's the data, I guess?

>> Caits: There hasn't really been data and I've only been there for about a year. The program was really pretty grassroots for a long time, beautifully, but that means that there was no data collected. And because it's a national program, it's hard to really say who went through the program and who was impacted. A lot of the folks that have been cycling through, who won awards, kind of rose to the top year after year, so across 5 or 6 genres. A lot of them are in for life. We have a lot of people who have long sentences or are in for life who end up being people who we see there, writing, continue to win. Although we are trying to expand that and move out of the everyday voice and also give other opportunities to writers that we know. That comes along our desk

>> Brian: This is kind of morbid but now I feel like this episode could be called "Long Sentences"

>> Caits: Well that's actually a project that we are working on is actually about life and death in prison. So be sentenced to life in prison or death penalty. And we do have a couple of death penalty writers as well

>> Brian: I mean that's maximilism to it's (laughs) unfortunate logical term

>> Caits: Sure

>> Brian: Yeah, that's super interesting. I can't wait to get involved and we gotta talk about that after this.

>> Caits: Absolutely

>> Brian: But yeah. Devin says something about this. In college, were you studying mainly black literature?

>> Devin: Well I was an English and History major and was a African American Studies minor.

>> Brian: I don't know if you would agree with this Caits, but the incarceration system is kind of like modern day slavery in a lot of ways

>> Devin: Sure

>> Caits: I agree with that 100%

>> Devin: In college is when I read the autobiography of Malcolm X for the first time.

>> Brian: God, that changed my life

>> Devin: "The New Jim Crow" which came out when I think I was in college. And I think English literature has a history I think that people are not as aware of of prison writing. One of my favorite American poets is Etheridge Knight...

>> Caits: Mine too

>> Devin: ...who was incarcerated for 8 years for bank robbery. The same time period as Gwendolyn Brooks, I believe. And wrote one of my favorite poems "Feeling Fucked Up", which is a great poem to teach.

>> Brian: Oh that's a great title. I gotta read that.

>> Devin: Yeah. It's a great poem. I used to know it by heart because I would teach it so often

>> Caits: It would be easy enough to pull up too

>> Devin: That's a great poem. Fuck Marx. Fuck... he goes on. "I just want my woman back so my soul can sing." But he wrote his first book from prison

>> Brian: That was what I was going to ask. If he had started after. Oh our producers have brought it up.

>> Devin: Should we read it?

>> Caits: Yeah

>> Brian: I kind of love that idea.

>> Devin: I'll read it. I can bring it up on my phone so I can read it here

>> Brian: We've been meaning to get people to read their own work on here. So this can be the first stepping stone.

>> Devin: I believe the first line is like "Lord she's done, left me done, packed up, split"

>> Caits: Real close. "Lord she's done, left me done, packed up, and split"

>> Devin: I wish people could see it, the slash. (Recites "Feeling Fucked Up"). But yeah I believe he wrote that in prison. I think his introduction to poetry was letter writing. I believe he wrote poems that he admired, like Gwendolyn Brooks, and started up a conversation with them and then someone from Broadside Press, I don't think that's a press anymore, heard about his work and I believe the moment that he got out of prison that his book was published. And I think it was called "Letters From Prison".

>> Brian: When was this?

>> Devin: I want to say 60's. He died in '96. Late 60's

>> Caits: I think late 60's but I can't remember the details as well.

>> Brian: Yeah. What were the circumstances with the bank robbery and everything?

>> Devin: I don't know exactly. He did rob the bank but he was very upset that the sentence was so long

>> Brian: Yeah, and nobody got hurt

>> Caits: I think he may have been a drug user.

>> Devin: Yeah

>> Brian: Yeah. I would love to do a whole podcast on just addiction. Just because if you are talking about free will and your choices to do things... to me drug use proves that free will might not exist because of what it makes you do and I think that's what's really important. Bringing it back to prison reform, it seems like that we are more interested as a society... we were talking about this, shaming celebrities and rightfully so in a lot of situations to a certain degree, especially with "me too" and stuff. But the difference between condemning and shaming or figuring out how to solve the problem. It seems like we are more interested in economically exploiting a problem.

>> Caits: Sure

>> Brian: Because it's easy to say that these are bad people, let's make them do work for 10 years. That's why I ask

>> Devin: Yeah. Sure. And also to your original point about getting involved and the demographic differences of people, Etheridge Knight, to tie it back to him, has a poem called like "White Woman Wasp Visits A Black Junkie in Prison"

>> Caits: I love that poem. Woooo, we should read that one (laughter). That's great

>> Devin: It's a bit longer and the first few stanzas are about why this woman is even coming to visit him. And it's sort of an internal monologue. And at the end, the final stanza, their common ground has nothing to do with her visiting him or him being in jail, it has to do with the fact that she has a child. Or they both have children. And that's how it ends

>> Brian: Together?

>> Devin: No. The poem is almost about the searching for how people find a denominator to meet on and sometimes it is so wildly unrelated to... sometimes we focus so much on where people are in their circumstances or whatever, as we search for denominators and it ends up being as simple as the fact they both have children. And I think the last line is about them laughing about her child making a mess in the room or something like that.

>> Brian: Uh huh

>> Devin: I don't know if that's completely accurate

>> Caits: As far as I can remember

>> Devin: Yeah

>> Caits: I'm not good at remembering details. You seem to be much better at it than I am, Devin. That poem has so many layers and implications when thinking about who goes into prison to do what work which is why I love it so much. Because it hits on all of the nuance in different parts of the piece

>> Devin: Sure. I feel like Caits should talk about her background. What led you to working? Because I know that your background is in large part as an educator. And perhaps how did that drive that to where you are now?

>> Caits: Sure

>> Brian: Yeah. What got you passionate about this stuff?

>> Caits: My mother likes to remind me that when I was 14 and I was a camp counselor. I was teaching a School to Prison Pipeline Workshops using this video out of the Ella Baker Center called "Books Not Bars" which I believe is on YouTube and sadly really holds up still. So I've always been really interested in the conversation. When I saw that film obviously it did something to me when I was young. And then much later I taught public schools, etc.

I have a whole non-profit, community-teaching background and I was at Tribeca Film Institute managing their education program and we did some work at Rikers Island. So that put me in the space. I think I was maybe 20 or 19, which is much earlier on when I went to Rikers and also performed as a poet. So I had a couple of experiences there and that's a very harrowing place. And then I was leaving Tribeca to teach part-time and go to grad school. And I got a couple of calls the same week and that led me to teaching at a women's prison at Bedford Hills every week for a few years.

And also teaching teenagers at, I believe at, Crossroads Juvenile Detention Center first then Rikers Island then that sort of set it off. So I got in the spaces again in a really deep way. And the teenagers are hard, and more hard as they are always hard and it was heartbreaking and difficult.

But the adults, which is what everyone says when they teach prison and work with adults, is where I really kind of fell in love with that work because it was a very hyperintense classroom and anyone who's ever taught knows that you're competing with people's cell phones and people's life distractions and people are relatively privileged in that they even have access to education. But in the room, all of these folks had signed up who were really desperate to learn and hungry and there was no distraction.

>> Brian: I think that's the first thing that would strike me about going in. I think the first feeling that I'll have is being overwhelmed with guilt

>> Caits: Yeah, I can see what you mean. Well, you do. That never goes away

>> Brian: You're looking at that question like you can't answer it. Our producers just put a question up on the word document

>> Caits: It was "who was the first to make an impression on me in that space and why?" But I'm like everybody. There's not even an answer to it because there's so many people. And so many people still

>> Brian: You don't want to upset somebody? (laughs)

>> Caits: No, no, no (laughs). I remember everybody that I ever taught. I mean, that's somebody specific. Of course, I don't even know where to start with that. I can think of maybe moments. And it changes time to time. It depends on if it's women's prison, or men's prison, or young people, or adults.

>> Brian: Does Rikers Prison have a division for both or is just men?

>> Caits: It's both

>> Brian: It's both?

>> Caits: Yeah

>> Brian: Yeah. So here's a way to talk about a specific person. The second part, you're going to be on with Sergio. So how did you meet Sergio de la Pava and his wife Susanna who are two of the greatest people on this earth.

>> Caits: I haven't met Susanna before but Sergio I met because...

>> Devin: Tireless... they're both tireless

>> Brian: Yes tireless. Genius and tireless are the two words that I would use to describe them

>> Devin: The ol' G and T

>> Brian: (laughs) Yeah

>> Caits: And generous which can also be G and G.

>> Brian: Yeah, ok. We're never going to stop here. But we are talking about someone who wrote a Ulysses-esque literary catechism when he was a public defendant working 80 hours a week. I don't know how these people do it. But anyway, how did you guys meet and how is he involved in stuff?

>> Caits: He does a lot of work with Pen

>> Brian: Yeah, I can imagine

>> Caits: He's very very generous with the organization overall. But in terms of my department, I invited him to read a piece on behalf of somebody in prison who won an award and he came and read at the event. And then I invited him also to speak to our fellows and we had our gathering with everyone in New York City because the fellows are across the country. And he came as a... we had different writers who were writing about criminal justice and different genres come for an informal launch and he was somebody who came to the table as well. So, that's how I know him through this work.

>> Brian: That's cool. Yeah, I can't wait to have both of you guys on here. It's going to be a lot of fun

>> Caits: I'm really excited too. I'm really honored

>> Brian: I'm not going to lie, I'm going to be a little intimidated (laughs)

>> Caits: No, it's going to be great

>> Brian: I know, we know him

>> Caits: I actually told him that I know somebody who started a press based on being inspired by you. And he was like "Oh Brian" (laughter). Yeah, "I guess you know, huh?"

>> Brian: Thanks to these guys two, Devin and Katie got him to read at Animal Riot

>> Caits: Yeah, he said he loved it

>> Brian: Yeah. Our producers want a kratom check in. I don't think you can probably feel it yet. No?

>> Caits: I'm feeling pretty normal. But pretty good, you know? I mean, not tired

>> Devin: I'm not drinking kratom. But I once did a poetry reading at a kava and kratom bar

>> Brian: Oh yeah, that's right. Which was one of the weirdest experiences that you have ever had

>> Devin: Because I had never had kava or kratom before. I am fairly innocent... innocence is a bad word to use. But I'm not an experimental drug user. I like the simple ones, alcohol. But I read at this kratom and kava bar and I felt obligated to have both because they were putting on this reading

>> Brian: I have never had kava before

>> Devin: Yeah. And my mouth went numb

>> Brian: (laughs) That could have been the kratom

>> Devin: Yes. And it was pouring outside. But it was also the most well-attended reading that I have ever been to

>> Caits: Wow

>> Devin: There were like 60 people that only fit like...

>> Brian: That's awesome. People like their kratom

>> Caits: I think kava can be tough on your liver or something like that. I have kava stress-relief that can be sold at your average grocery store

>> Devin: Yeah

>> Brian: Let us eat our cake. That's all I say (laughs)

>> Devin: Yeah. Carlie read there. A few Animal Riot alum read there.

>> Brian: Did you feel the effects?

>> Devin: I stopped drinking the kava after that first one. I don't know if I was really knowledgeable to what was happening other than my mouth going numb and then my friend George came with a fifth of whiskey and then we snuck drinks and that made everything better for me

>> Caits: That would make me feel number I think

>> Brian: (laughs) I think that's the idea. That's alcohol's idea, numbness

>> Caits: I think many drugs, you know?

>> Brian: Yeah, that's true

>> Caits: I taught at a needle exchange up the street from here, 181st, around there.     

>> Brian: You taught at "Needle Exchange"?

>> Caits: A needle exchange.

>> Brian: A needle exchange

>> Caits: Called "A Corner Project" a couple years ago and worked with active intravenous drug users. Often who are nodding at the table

>> Brian: Uh huh. This something I would really love to get involved in. That's really hard work, but like...

>> Caits: It's really some of the most confronting work that I've ever done

>> Brian: I was a psychology major as an undergrad and my focus was addictions and so I did a bunch of addictions labs and I'm obsessed with addiction.

>> Caits: I'm sure they would be interested in another writing teacher. I couldn't continue it. It was a number of years ago now. But it's a drop-in center so people were actively high often which made the classroom a totally different space. But of course their whole framework is hard reduction so it's not about getting people off the drug, it's about saying "be safe" and non-judgement and understanding.

>> Brian: Yes, yes. That's what people do on Reddit. Reddit literally has threads where it's like "this is about harm reduction, we aren't trying to get you off drugs" or whatever but there are great communities online. Reddit is a cesspool for trolls...

>> Devin: Yeah, well so is any...

>> Brian: Yeah but Reddit is particularly like, you're going to get unfortunate human honesty on there, you know? But there is some really good shit on there. Just being obsessed with addiction and drugs and pharmacology, I just go through so many threads. And the harm reduction is a really important thing. I feel like in America that's new

>> Devin: Yeah

>> Caits: In about through the AIDS movement in the late 70's? Late 80's maybe?

>> Brian: That's older than I thought

>> Devin: Yeah, I would assume that many contemporary Americans don't know what a needle exchange is or that it exists.

>> Brian: Yeah, right

>> Devin: I think people's conception of addiction is so often tied to saying it's bad

>> Brian: Yeah, and that's the problem

>> Devin: Yeah

>> Brian: That ties back to the same thing about criminalizing things and exploiting it. Like "this is bad and you are a bad person for doing this" and that doesn't help anyone.

>> Caits: Right

>> Brian: When you put shame and guilt, you make everything worse. You aren't going to get anyone to reform themselves. Even if you would call that reform or reformation.

>> Devin: Yeah

>> Brian: I'm super interested in that kind of stuff. But our producers have another question up on the board. Why are prison writing programs important and what does writing do to an inmate's life? Should we settle on inmate? Is that acceptable?

>> Caits: Well let's talk about that.

>> Brian: Yes

>> Caits: I think it's important because it's about language and we are writers.

>> Brian: Yes, I couldn't agree more. Let's talk about that

>> Caits: There's a debate. The Marshall Project actually did a big survey of folks in prison who are currently incarcerated which word they prefer and a lot of people said "well we don't really care if you use inmate". But a lot of formerly incarcerated people have started a movement...

>> Brian: Yeah, and that makes sense. Formerly incarcerated saying that I am inexorably tied into this terminology

>> Caits: Sure. But I have met a lot of people too and it's symbolic. Inmate is a word that they hear from prison guards. Oh sorry, correctional officers. They don't like to be called guards, speaking of language. So we have chosen that pen. Really, I have chosen that pen, not to use state language. So we don't use inmate, convict, felon, offender. These are all words that people hear are labeled with, etc on a day-to-day basis. And our work is obviously about being expansive and layered and able to have different sides of yourself and to be a full human. We do use prisoner mostly because it's shorthand and it's illustrative so if they are in prison then they are a prisoner

>> Brian: Yeah, it's kind of just literal. It's not necessarily pejorative, it's just what's happening.

>> Caits: Right

>> Brian: When we came up with the idea to have you on and start getting into all of this stuff because we both really cared about it, one of my friend's Luke in Seattle was like "yeah, you can call that Prose and Cons". And I was like that's a pretty good pun

>> Caits: That's pretty clever

>> Brian: Yeah, it's pretty clever but I don't think we can do that. (laughs) Katie was the one that was like "uh, no".

>> Caits: Yeah, it's a sensitive world that we are living in. But I get it. I have probably visited over 22 prisons and jails at this point so I have met a lot of people writing in prison and I try to listen to what folks are asking for, you know?

>> Brian: At any point did you feel threatened or anything like that? Or intimidation? Maybe the first times that you went in? Just because, you know, I don't think people should shy away from talking about that. You shouldn't say "oh no, this is fine. This is a terrible system, we should be doing this". It's ok to feel that if someone murdered someone here then, you know what I mean?

>> Caits: I struggle with that because I don't think it's not nuanced totally. I think there's actually a lot of hard conversations about humanity within this conversation and mass incarceration is an easier thing to talk about because then we talk about the New Jim Crow, we talk about three strikes laws, we talk about non-violent crimes. But the fact is that there are many, many violent crimes that people in prison have committed. And the conversation has to include it and has to stop dichotomising that if we actually want to get anywhere. Which requires much more difficult conversations. But in terms of have I ever been intimidated? Every time I go in there I'm intimidated by the whole... it's made to feel intimidating. You go through gates, and wires, and scanners. So the environment alone of course is intimidating.

>> Brian: It's interesting with the parallels between that and a, I hesitate to say inner city school, but a school in a rough environment, you know? The parallels are striking

>> Caits: Absolutely

>> Devin: I mean it's crazy being a teacher in an inner city public school teacher in a New York City public school building because I don't have to go through a metal detector everyday when I walk in. But every single student does

>> Caits: Yeah

>> Brian: Even though statistically you're just as likely to go in... (laughs) I mean come on

>> Devin: Yeah, I mean, I think these conversations need to include the ways in which our environments affect our understanding of ourselves and the people either in environments that we don't understand, or environments that we generalize, or that we don't apply nuance to. And I feel that to when people have conversations about criminal justice reform and prison abolition, it so often seems like they're talking about the, though hard, easier subject of non-violent crimes and things of that nature when I think the conversation has to include that if you want to advocate for prison abolition then you're advocating for prison abolition and reform for everyone in prison.

>> Caits: Right

>> Devin: And that includes the people who committed crimes that are not easy to rhetorically unjustify... I don't know the right word. But it's much harder to apply nuance to someone who is in prison for life for murder and assault

>> Caits: Except for when you meet them and all of a sudden they're just a person. I think that's the whole point of what writing programs in prison do. And there's a twofold thing happening, right? There's the education of the people on the outside. So really humanising, bringing people closer to the fact that there are 2.3 million people in prison times many, many, many others on parole, probation, have gotten out of prison... I mean that's not a minority of this country. There's, I think, half the people in America, I read recently, have had a family member in prison or someone close to them.

>> Brian: Wow, that is... wow

>> Caits: So this is an issue that affects many, many, many people. So how do we get people into the conversation where it is nuanced? How many times has somebody basically said to me "oh man, that person wrote that and they are in prison?" Just because they are in prison doesn't mean they are illiterate or stupid or not talented or not contributory.

>> Brian: I want to be the first to admit that one of my first questions when I was getting interested in this was like "are people going to be interested in me coming in with this like".... this kind of ties into how Devin was talking on an earlier episode... I think we did... how academia is inextricably tied from literature but that we are trying to disentangle that. But you have people that haven't had the same life experience and I...

>> Caits: Some have. Some have though

>> Brian: ... some have but I'm talking about... I mean I have gotten in plenty of trouble

>> Caits: Some people have never gotten in trouble and then all of a sudden they're in prison for something violent or non-violent.

>> Brian: Yeah, and Jesus, there's so much that's exploding from my mind right now.

>> Caits: Oh it's great. It's informative.

>> Brian: But my implicit bias was immediately like are people going to be interested in this. Who am I to come in with this book with all of my $10 words and are they going to give a shit? Like I have one white Jewish character from affluence... all of those things started racing through my mind

>> Caits: And the answer is some people will and some people won't. And the people that are interested will sign up for it and the people who won't will stay where they are, you know?

>> Devin: Which is also the same in the world outside

>> Brian: Exactly. That's the implicit bias that I had. Like "oh there's something different here" and no, there's not. It's not different at all

>> Caits: That's what the meeting wants to... that's the dominant narrative about who is in prison. So the writing program, part of our goal is to really get writing into the hands of... part of my goal really is to reintegrate exiled voices back into the literary community. Which is actually difficult when there are walls in between you and no internet. And even a liberal writing community has a lot of bias or questions

>> Brian: I think it's terrible that they don't have access to the internet

>> Caits: Well it is terrible and it's a security concern

>> Brian: They can have books?

>> Caits: Well, sometimes they can and sometimes they can't.

>> Brian: Oh, I understand that. Maybe Google can beta test the China version of their search engine for censorship (laughs)

>> Caits: That costs a lot of money. But that raises a whole series of questions about then how do we support people. So many questions. That's a big part of the rewriting of this handbook which is going to be more of a DIY for folks on the inside who don't always have to rely on people from the outside coming in because there's actually a lot of talent. For example, I was just at a prison outside of Minneapolis called Stillwater and a writer there who has won our contest multiple times, he had a book published with University of Michigan Press, an incredible writer...

>> Brian: Cool. Fiction, poetry?

>> Caits: Fiction, poetry, and non-fiction.

>> Brian: Oh cool.

>> Caits: He does all three very well. And he started the writing collective before there was any writing program there and really wanted to share that with me as a representative of Pen, I think just because of the prison writing awards' importance in his life. But he was also like "listen, we do this" and I was like "I know and it's really inspiring". So for example, I want him to write a short essay about how he did that because it's not actually easy to organize within prison. So I think that's one side of it, right? Is the education that we get on the outside and the melting of the calcified perceptions of whose in prison and all of that advocacy. But also what writing does for people in prison is obviously a variety of things. It does for all of us on the outside, we all have our reasons for writing, right? Of course. But I think for people who come to write while they're in prison, because you will get a mix of folks if you do a class. Some who are self-identified writers and some who are just interested and pass the time and get better at something

>> Brian: Those are the more important targets just because they...

>> Caits: I think both are

>> Brian: But I was just saying that you get someone then who knows what happens when you get them fresh

>> Caits: Well it's exciting. Yeah. Well it's totally exciting. And I think that what writing can do at best... and of course there are people who want to write because it's their passion and their craft and they take it very seriously like those of us who are capital W Writers on the outside. And then there are folks who come in with an interest and what writing can do at its best is help people redefine a narrative that they've been handed now. I made a mistake or I did something pretty terrible potentially, how do you reconcile with that for the rest of your life? And people who come to writing classes, typically I think, are people who are more interested in self-work and looking at themselves and being able to change the narrative. But also the self-esteem to be able... why would you even want to change your narrative or how would you even start if you don't even have a space to do it.

>> Brian: Right, right

>> Caits: So I think there's something about the writing program's space that gets to be a non-prison for two hours, you know?

>> Brian: Devin do you have anything you want to add to that?

>> Devin: No, that's great

>> Brian: Yeah. I want to get into the nitty gritty. You go in, you go through all of the security and then what room do you go do? Who's usually there? What is it like to get people to sign up? Do you ever read to them from your stuff or other people's stuff or is it all just their writing and discussing?

>> Caits: Well it always depends. I have taught in housing units which means I am in where people live, where their cells are. That's a really terrible and tense place to teach. I taught at the transgender housing unit

>> Brian: Housing unit? That's not like a halfway house or something?

>> Caits: No, it's where people sleep within the prison

>> Brian: Oh, you're talking about within. I see

>> Caits: Yeah, if you've ever seen a TV show where it's a row of cell blocks

>> Brian: Sure, sure

>> Caits: It's like that. It looks different in every prison

>> Brian: Ok

>> Caits: So I was teaching, for example, the transgender housing unit many years ago at MDC Downtown which is the Manhattan jail...

>> Brian: They had a transgender housing unit?

>> Caits: They did

>> Brian: Wow. That's fascinating

>> Caits: Lots to talk about that there. But I was competing my time, my class was during the Wendy Williams Show so it was like "forget it". Nobody wanted to come sit and write (laughter). I mean I had a couple folks who would and one person in particular came week-by-week which made it special to me.

>> Brian: That's an analogy for the state of literature in general

>> Caits: Totally

>> Brian: We are competing with the Wendy Williams Show

>> Caits: So there you are trying to teach where people live. They might want to lay down or it's right before lunch so they're hungry and then there's officers all around. And the housing units are depressing. You're sitting at this tiny card table and ugh... so there's that scenario. But typically I'm in a classroom so it usually looks like a public school classroom.

>> Brian: They just have them there?

>> Caits: Yeah. There's often schools or small conference rooms that I've been to. And we get together and we do what we do with any classroom. We come up with a theme for the semester and I come up with a syllabus and I teach it.

>> Brian: Yeah so you basically run a class, interesting.

>> Caits: When I go in as a guest, that can be different and look different.

>> Devin: Sure

>> Brian: And what about one-on-one? Because something that I saw that was interesting that you guys did was the one-on-one mentorship type thing

>> Caits: That's all through the mail.

>> Brian: Ok I see, that's just strictly through the mail

>> Caits: None of Pen's work goes directly into prisons. We don't actually teach in the prison space because there's a lot of programs doing that and it's a national program so there's a lot of reasons why that's intense. One of our big projects coming up is creating a toolkit for people who want to do that work in prisons because it's not an answer for how to get involved. So I visit prisons now primarily as a representative of the program. People want to bring me in to talk about the work that we do which I always feel very grateful to get to do. In the past I was teaching classes so it looks a little different now when I go into prisons

>> Brian: Wow, interesting. At the risk of sounding naive or quixotic, because you both talked about prison abolishment? Is that a word, abolishment?

>> Devin: Abolition. Abolishment works too, I believe

>> Caits: More intense sounding. I like it

>> Brian: Yeah, yeah. So the analog that I'm thinking of... and I'm going to use very binary language just for argument's sake... when conservatives that might deny climate change, some of their argument for climate change proposals is "yeah, this is great but what's the alternative?" Right? And there's a lot of stuff that's there that we know. But like, I'm interested in the same thing that people that are like "we have to punish criminals", let's say. If we abolish prisons then what's the alternative. What do you guys see? I don't know, who wants to go first?

>> Devin: Well this is going to be a non-specific answer to a very specific question. I think it takes a radical shift in imagination and how you... I think prison abolition would be truly tied to so many radical shifts in the way we view public housing, education...

>> Brian: Responsibility?

>> Devin: Yeah

>> Caits: Addiction

>> Devin: Yeah, addiction. Any statewide system

>> Caits: Capitalism

>> Devin: Yeah. I don't think prison abolition exists truly in a deeply capitalist society or any capitalist society. I don't think prison abolition exists in a society where public education exists the way it does now. I don't think it's possible

>> Brian: It's too inextricably tied to exploitation

>> Devin: Yeah. I think if I said I was a prison abolitionist and someone posed me that same question, I would say to them that the nature of our prison system, our criminal justice system, is a direct reflection of the society that we live in. The society that the state has allowed for and the society that the state has propagated.

>> Brian: So maybe it doesn't start with prison itself, it starts with changes things before

>> Devin: Yeah, there needs to be drastic mental health reform. There needs to be drastic education reform. There needs to be drastic reform in all sorts of ways that allows for the belief that every human being in this country has the same potential and access for the same quality of life that people with privilege have.

>> Caits: Yep

>> Devin: It's not as cut and dry as a system as well. Like, if you believe in prison abolition then what do you do when Joe murders his family. I don't have an answer for that

>> Brian: Especially how do the victims feel? Like the victim's families

>> Devin: Yeah. And I have a better question: what does justice look like in a abolitionist system?

>> Brian: Right. Yeah

>> Devin: And that's a trickier question that ties into what our values are as a society and how we view each human being

>> Caits: I think Devin that you hit the nail on the head spot on. And it's a tricky thing for me. I don't call myself a prison abolitionist because of all of those questions that I have. But I do think that we do need people that are prison abolitionists on the front line really pushing the vision of what can and should be instead of settling for something like "oh let's uh more community supervision". Well that's just mass incarceration in a different form

>> Brian: Yeah

>> Caits: Let's do... we are shutting down Rikers but opening up all of these new community jails. Well ok that puts people close to their families but what does that really do? So there's a lot of questions around: is reform really reform? And I think that the alternatives look like community intervention programs, it looks like treatment centers, it looks like restorative justice. Coming Justice is an amazing organization in Brooklyn that works with people that have done violent crime and reconciling with victims. Because our current criminal justice system, by the way, doesn't do anything for the victims except for maybe revenge

>> Brian: Exactly

>> Caits: They're cut out of the process. It's the state against the person. So it's not even a necessarily satisfying process for the victim

>> Brian: Yeah, none of it addresses the problem that we are trying to solve.

>> Caits: Right. So we look at healing spaces, whatever that means, I don't know. Unraveling this machine and this beast is totally overwhelming so I can't give steps that I would see but I do think that in a healthier society we'd be looking at not what you did wrong... well we would be looking at that to... but we would really be asking also what happened to you and going to that first?

>> Brian: Yeah, and that's what I'm interested in. I'll admit, straight, up that I kind of don't believe in free will

>> Caits: There's a great podcast on that, "On Being", I'll find it for you

>> Devin: "On Being" is great

>> Caits: I forget who the guy was but you have to listen to it

>> Brian: The episode called "On Being" or that's the podcast

>> Devin: The podcast

>> Caits: No, that's the podcast. And then the guy... I'll have to look back. I remember he was near Martin Sheen's but he's someone who also looks at "I really don't think we have free will, sorry guys". Martin Sheen is pretty awesome also, by the way. Super activist

>> Brian: Yeah, Devin over here, "West Wing" is like on heavy rotation. His bedtime stories.

>> Caits: You would really get along with my parents. But Martin Sheen is a major activist. Oh, we have a good question

>> Brian: Yeah, Caits is always looking over at the question board over here

>> Caits: It's hard not to, you know? It's shining...

>> Brian: Yeah, yeah. So how could the literary world be on the front line of change... whether it's abolition or reform or whatever you want to call it. What can books do?

>> Caits: Well I think that word 'ecosystem' I use a lot because I think people play different roles, right? So I'm not on the front lines of a protest like Martin Sheen. I play a different role, right? In terms of the literary world, I debate back and forth around the good ol' hierarchy of need and how important is literature anyway and what am I even doing with art? I have all of these kinds of questions and people have really dire needs. But I do think what the literary world is pretty impressive at in the last couple of years is really shifting to whose voices we value. And it's not good enough yet but there's been a lot of emphasis on moving towards really being inclusive, uplifting voices that have been "underheard", looking at who has been left out of the conversation, and valuing different kinds of writing. I think that we can make statements saying that we value the voices of people in prison. Bring them into our work. Not easy to do, again, that's a whole other conversation. We may be doing an event on that actually this next year so keep your eyes out if you are in New York City in March.

>> Brian: Cool

>> Caits: I mean of course imagination... artists are always able to imagine a world that isn't. I mean also writing about issues too. But the question that always is who's the audience, how's the word getting out there, who's reading it, who's reading period? So I think that we have to look at it as a microcosm so how do we sort of live the principles in our work that we want to see in the world. But I think that has to happen on a personal level outside of literature with individuals as human beings which is a very hard thing to do on a day-to-day basis, you know? It requires constant questioning of how am I interacting, what does forgiveness look like, what does being accountable look like, what does admitting my wrong look like even when it's really embarrassing and painful and I don't want to?

>> Devin: Yeah. That's one of the hardest things about thinking about how literature changes the world because so often I feel lately how contemporary literature is on the front lines of very progressive causes and realizations and ideations and then you realize that the best selling literary fiction book is nothing compared to the newest Drake song (laughter).

>> Caits: But you do hope to trickle down.

>> Devin: Yes, you do.

>> Caits: And I think that you're right. Literature is where a lot of new ideas start. And then you get someone like Jay-Z who Molly Crabapple illustrated doing a video on the New York Times about the marijuana industry now being run by white people who are benefiting and getting all of this money while the folks who were selling it on the corner are totally cut off of it now being legal. White people vs people of color obviously. So I think it does start to infiltrate and it's not a direct correlation always but look at Kendrick Lamar for example. That guy is brilliant. That guy has to be reading, you know what I mean? He's probably devouring books

>> Devin: Yeah, to your point a lot of these things begin in art

>> Brian: I love that you brought up Jay-Z. It also makes me think of Pusha T. In terms of this implicit bias of criminals and what their mindset is. And like what is criminality? Ok so whoever makes Oxycontin... I want to say Purdue but that's a chicken company (laughter)

>> Devin: It might be Purdue. Kelloggs owns a bunch of things that aren't cereal.

>> Brian: It might be Purdue. I forget. But they are fucking pushing drugs. That's what they are doing. I'm trying not to make this a... what I'm trying to get at is that these people are obviously very smart. So you listen to a Pusha T song and he has a line in his newest album about how they didn't even think about giving a hip-hop artist other than someone like Will Smith, who is a little bit whitewashed, you know, I don't want to say that, I think that's...

>> Caits: I still love him though. I just do

>> Devin: Yeah. Wholesome. Beautiful. Great family.

>> Brian: Independence Day is one of the greatest films of all time.

>> Caits: Totally would win for president if he ran

>> Brian: Oh it is Purdue. Wow, I'm fucking good. Anyway, either that or I'm way too obsessed with addiction and drugs. But what I am saying is that he has a line about they didn't even think about giving a Grammy to someone like Jay-Z until he did Annie. Which was "A Hard Knock Life".

>> Caits: Hmm, right.

>> Brian: And it's like, you listen to Pusha T's lyrics and it's like this dude is a fucking genius. And it's like, where did it come from? It clearly comes from the same thing that it comes from for any of us. So your circumstances clearly dictate what you do with your life and I can't judge someone for selling drugs when people want to do drugs and we refuse to investigate why that might be the case and kind of harm reduction initiatives can be put there

>> Caits: Well a lot more people agree with that now and that's because of "The New Jim Crow", Michelle Alexander. And you teach Devin, at a high school that I used to teach at in the South Bronx, the principal had all the teachers and all of the administration reading "The New Jim Crow". So then that infiltrates their classrooms. Nothing's going to be perfect in terms of how we deal with these massive issues in our society. And sometimes I am a total pessimist. I'm actually like, we're really screwed. We're destroying our planet. I take some comfort in the fact that the Earth will probably regenerate once we are gone. (laughter) Many people probably find that frightening. A lot of people will be in pain first which is not good to think about

>> Brian: Oh my God. You're going to love our second novel that we are going to put out by David Hollander. The working title is "Anthropica", I'm not sure if we are going to stick with that but it's about a group that wants to unleash these robots that basically want to kill humanity. And there is this idea...

>> Devin: It's happening with Boston Dynamics and those dog robots

>> Caits: Oh I know. Those are so scary. They're like Black Mirror. But you know, this is a question that I am thinking about a lot. The... I'm like for example... people are making these hand signals in the background and I'm getting distracted. Sorry, what am I saying?

>> Devin: They're speaking American Sign Language

>> Brian: She wants me to plug David Hollander's new Twitter handle

>> Caits: Ahhh, plug it

>> Devin: The website's great. The website's amazing

>> Brian: The website's amazing, right? All hail Katie Rainey, our producer. But essentially he came up with this Twitter handle and it's through Fexo, one of the robots in his novel, and it's through his voice. And it is fucking hilarious. Some of my favorite parts of the book is basically Fexo trying to write stories like a human

>> Caits: Oh man. That's the only thing that I want to follow on Twitter. I went on it today and was so overwhelmed by the intensity of it (laughter). But I will be following this one

>> Brian: Yeah, do it. It's hilarious

>> Devin: It's longlivetheauthor.com and it's @thefexo

>> Brian: Yeah, longlivetheauthor.com is his website and @thefexo is the Twitter handle. It is hilarious. I am obsessed with it. I'm so excited to put this book out

>> Caits: I'm excited to read it. And just to go back to what literature can do if that's ok?

>> Brian: Yes, yes. That's more than ok

>> Caits: Which I think about a lot from a pessimistic standpoint. But I am also teaching a class this summer at Poet's House that's about... well let me ask this first. Devin, have you ever written a poem and something in the poem later comes true and you're like "woah that's weird".

>> Devin: Sure

>> Caits: So you have accidentally predicted something but in a very specific way? Have you ever had that?

>> Brian: I just published an essay that ties into everything that we are talking about right now. I just published an essay on Anti-Heroin Chic and it's about me becoming friends with this jazz drummer. And he sat outside this dental clinic and it wasn't clear what he did for them but he "worked" there. Sorry Devin, I'm going to let you say your thing. But I literally have this scene in my novel where Julia runs into this trumpet busker and she starts talking about how her dad died after relapsing on meth and essentially they have this conversation and they form this friendship and this happened with me. Except the roles were kind of reversed in the sense that I realized that he was dishonest but I really liked him and I noticed a lot of myself in him just if our circumstances had kind of been switched. Basically what it boiled down to was that he said he was going to do a tour in Florida. Before that he said he was going to do a show at The Shrine. He told me when, where, we show up, he's not there. Then he says he's going to do this tour in Florida for a month and then I see him like a week later and he looks really strung out on a bench and he's kind of ranting paranoically about "oh don't tell people where I am living" and stuff like that. And it was really sad but I really liked him a lot and I really saw myself in him. So yeah, anyway, I can really relate to that.

>> Caits: Yeah, not just poems. Writing in general. Sure

>> Brian: Yeah, something that happened that I wrote about and I was like "wow, this is eerie".

>> Devin: Yes, it's happened to me. That's all

>> Brian: Do you have a specific poem?

>> Devin: Nah... mostly it's that feeling of writing into a feeling that you didn't know you had as if the poem has given you permission to feel that in the real world. And so after the writing of the poem or the piece, it is... so often writing is not actually an articulation of what you feel, it is sort of a radical imagination and the writing grants you the ability to feel this new thing. You write yourself into newness

>> Caits: Exactly. So with that said, beautifully articulated, this class that I am teaching is about that energy but trying to harness that energy. So there's some woo woo stuff involved in it, I'm not going to lie. Some woo tarot stuff, you know? I enjoy it but I'm still a sceptic.

>> Brian: Oh, Katie can get down with that (laughs)

>> Caits: Great, Katie. But also I am using a lot of movement principles, like activist movement principles, for creating poems and really thinking about really reimagining the world by harnessing this energy of writing into something new, writing into a new world, what does it look like, and thinking about... I'm really looking at this book "Emergent Strategy" as sort of a baseline that I'm hopping out of...

>> Devin: It's a great book

>> Caits: It's a great book. And thinking about biomimicry which is the practice of looking at nature and natural responses for solutions

>> Brian: Biomimicry?

>> Caits: Right, yeah

>> Brian: That makes me think of mimesis. Mimesis is just like people copying people and that's how culture kind of forms

>> Devin: Yeah but instead of people it's the world. The natural world.

>> Caits: The natural world. Yeah.

>> Brian: Cool, cool

>> Caits: So, while I am a sceptic and who knows how all of this will go (laughs) I still believe, obviously, it's worth trying and doing and having literature be in conversation with what a better world looks like or could be.

>> Brian: Yeah. I just think it's important that, honestly this is my own woo woo shit, but I really do think that literature is very important just in terms of being able to imagine outside of yourself and I don't think there's anything else that replaces that. I don't do movies the same way. You have to actively decode and encode what someone is saying on paper and if you defamiliarize your language and all of that stuff then it's just an exercise that cannot be replicated anywhere else. And once people can get into that then you really start to... like woah, if I can do this, if I can translate what this person's mind is doing then this is just connecting all of us. And I don't think there's any better way of doing it. I don't think through a movie that you can do that. You know, you can't get into someone's psychology like that. And so in terms of prison reform, just showing people that these people are in there and they can connect right back with you in the same way just like anyone else. More than anything, the content. You know, I'm kind of talking in a psychoanalytic way right now but it's the process over content. You know what I mean?

>> Caits: No, I get it

>> Brian: Like what are we doing here together. I don't know, I hope that doesn't sound crazy abstruse but (laughs)

>> Caits: No, not at all (laughs)

>> Brian: Let's do a kratom check in. So far I feel kratom. Katie feels it

>> Caits: What do you... how would you describe? Because I feel good right now but I don't know if it's noticeable or if I'm just having a nice time with you guys

>> Brian: I see. And I didn't give you much. Like I gave you a very low dose. People get kind of afraid of it because of... like ok, so if you smoked a gram of marijuana then you would be fucking lit off of your ass, you know? Like, just done. A gram of kratom is an extremely low dose and I probably gave you a gram or two or something.

>> Caits: Ok

>> Brian: And so at those lower ends, at the lower range then it's more of an energizing, sort of mood uplifting thing. But if you take enough of it then it can act as a pain reliever. So you might be able to notice it, I don't know. It could be placebo or it could be the conversation, who knows?

>> Caits: Sometimes after I drink more than 2 cups of coffee, which this would be, then I get a very jittery feeling and I don't feel that way.

>> Devin: Oh

>> Brian: Yeah, right. Well that will take that away

>> Caits: I do mushroom coffee which tastes like coffee but not great coffee

>> Brian: What is mushroom coffee?

>> Caits: It's similar. It has um...

>> Brian: You're not microdosing psychedelic mushrooms (laughs)

>> Caits: No, no, no, it's too expensive but it's mushrooms that, chaga rosacea, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, that similarly boost your mood and concentration. It makes the intake for me of coffee much gentler

>> Brian: Cool

>> Caits: But it's pricey which I hate

>> Brian: Yeah. How could we expand the literary community with prison communities in a positive way outside of just writing programs in prisons? That's an interesting question

>> Caits: Yeah, I have a lot of ideas

>> Brian: Yeah? Go ahead

>> Caits: I think that if literary communities are broadly interested in this, let's say literary journals and literary readings. First of all, you have to make it accessible. So what do folks in prison need? Which is the question of equity. What does somebody need, right? Folks in prison have to figure out where to submit. Now Writer's Digest only tells you the name of the publication, the genre, and what the dates are. Well how the hell do you know what kind of stuff is in there? And if it's a literary journal that's online then you don't have access unless you have an advocate on the outside that does it for you.

>> Brian: That's the kind of the thing that upsets me about their lack of internet

>> Devin: And also submission fees

>> Brian: Right, right. Exactly

>> Caits: Of course. So the question is are literary journals open to sending back to an incarcerated writer some examples of work that they published? Are they willing to accept outside of their submission window? Because it may have changed from what's in this book from three years ago in the library that they are looking at. Are they willing to not only do an incarcerated writer's issue but to just open the gates to people who are in prison to submit. For example, this is great, I just got a phone call from a fellowship, that was quite a bit of money, in Oregon who called me and said how do you award money to writers in prison? What are the rules? Which is complicated and complex and so we had that dialog. It's not a straightforward answer. It wasn't a fellowship for incarcerated writers, it was just for writers period. And she said "I didn't realize that one of the fellows is incarcerated until I got to the address". And I said "I love to hear that first of all. Second of all, I know it's not public yet but can you tell me who it is?" And she said he his name and I said "I knew it, I knew it, I knew it" (laughs)

>> Brian: Can you say their name?

>> Caits: I don't know if it's announced yet. I wish

>> Brian: Oh ok. That's awesome.

>> Caits: We still do need spaces that, of course, hooked the identity so that does a lot of advocacy too. We're not changing our Pen prison writing awards anytime soon. That's important for a lot of people too. It gives a lot of permission as well. But I think that the more that we see voices in "normal outside literary spaces"... also for example, something that I have been interested in doing and it's really overwhelming to think about but it's an idea that I have is how do we get open mics to be featuring writers in prison? That means somebody takes on the voice and steps in to read the piece. There's a lot of ethical questions about that

>> Brian: What's the name of the fellowship?

>> Caits: I don't know. I'm sorry. It's just in Oregon just for writers in Oregon.

>> Brian: Oh fair enough

>> Caits: Yeah, I can't remember

>> Brian: We'll figure it out

>> Caits: Yeah, I'll look it up too and see if it's been announced. Maybe I'll do that shortly. I can write down the person's name for you and you can look it up.

>> Brian: I like this question that our producers just put up. Is there any writing that you would like to share?

>> Caits: Sure!

>> Brian: So Caits is looking up some writing from... someone that you have been working with, I assume.

>> Caits: I'll read a Pen award winning poet because it's just easiest to find that since it's published online

>> Brian: And where are they? Can you say?

>> Caits: Yeah. Oh sure. They're on pen.org

>> Brian: No, I mean like where is this person now? Like physically

>> Caits: Oh, shit.

>> Brian: Is that not...

>> Caits: I just don't know off the top of my head

>> Brian: Got it

>> Caits: So let me find... maybe I'll read you the first place award winner this year. It's Matthew Mendoza. He's won multiple times and in multiple categories. He also won with a play that... we put up a 10 minute long play with a group of actors that formerly incarcerated as part of rehabilitation through the arts. An alumni theatre program. And they brought the house down. They were amazing.

>> Brian: Where did it take place?

>> Caits: At the Brooklyn book festival which is where we will be next year again.

>> Brian: Ahhh

>> Caits: It was absolutely unbelievable. There's actually a great, really highly, nicely produced video online if you just search "breakout voices from the inside of Pen America 2018". We'll watch it, it's at the very end. And it's about all of these people in the prison debating about a prisoner turned into a bird and flew away.

>> Devin: Wow

>> Caits: It's wonderful. But this poem is called "Grace Notes" by Matthew Mendoza. I believe he's in New Mexico? Let's read his bio and then I can tell you. Texas. Just kidding. Matthew Mendoza is in prison in Texas. His work has been published in Atlanta Review, Big Muddy, and Comstock Review. He wants to thank Pen for changing the way he does time

>> Brian: Oh. That's amazing

>> Caits: Yeah. Well I got a wonderful letter back from him too because we send... I always call evidence which feels weird in the context of prison... but we send back packages of photographs, programs, impressions from the show, we send it all back to the writers who don't know that their work is being put up.

>> Devin: Wow

>> Caits: We really choose what is the most performable, essentially. And some of the letters that we have gotten back from people are just astonishing.

>> Brian: Yeah

>> Caits: And he said something like "a real group of actors on the outside on a real stage put my play up and nobody can take that away from me".

>> Brian: That's amazing. That's so cool

>> Caits: Which you realize the impact of things that are so small that we take for granted on the outside. So here's "Grace Notes" by Matthew Mendoza. (Recites from https://pen.org/grace-notes-matthew-mendoza/)

Just a little plug to say to come to our next show. What we did for that poem, I am so proud of this, we invited some currently incarcerated musicians at Sing Sing to score music for our award winning poems. Three of them

>> Devin: Oh wow

>> Brian: Cool. Cool

>> Caits: And we had a string quartet, on the outside who teaches in prison, performed the music and then the person who read that poem, who did a tremendous job Ian Manuel, his poetry is featured in Brian Stevenson's "Just Mercy" who is a big name in criminal justice reform. Ian's story is that he was incarcerated at 13 for shooting a woman in the jaw, who lived, after stealing her purse and was in solitary confinement for something like 18 years.

>> Brian: Wow

>> Caits: And he's out now obviously. He performed that poem. He's a poet himself. And he also reconciled with the woman that he shot. There's actually a video online of it that is pretty viral

>> Brian: That's incredible

>> Caits: That's a story of redemption and restoration that's pretty unbelievable. He was a kid, that might make it easier. But there are stories that are pretty tremendous. So that was the reading of that poem. Better than mine (laughter)

>> Brian: No, it's just amazing that if you have that kind of... I don't even know what to call that. If you're putting that stuff out in the world and you get that kind of feedback and that kind of validation then how much more likely are you to start thinking more positively?

>> Caits: How much does that do for us?

>> Brian: Yeah, for everyone

>> Caits: I mean, of course. Of course, of course. And everything is heightened in that space, obviously.

>> Brian: Uh huh. I was going to ask this anyways but it's up on the board. Is there anyway to get Matthew to hear this podcast or is that absolutely impossible?

>> Caits: Well I can do it over the phone

>> Brian: Over the phone?

>> Caits: Yeah, I would probably have to get somebody's number, could be Pen I could do it, on his call list and then he can call me and I can play it over the phone

>> Brian: Cool

>> Caits: That's probably the only way. Sometimes people can see things if there is a chaplain with access to the internet. But every prison is different and most is not possible. But yeah, we could definitely do it over the phone.

>> Devin: Yeah, we would have 10 million subscribers

>> Caits: That poem has been in a lot of places too because it's such a beautiful piece. I have read it at so many closed events, this and that.

>> Brian: I have to admit that it strikes me immediately that like (laughs)... it just feels that someone like that has so much more to say than your average MFA grad that comes out and does a reading because they're trying to get their name out there. And there's nothing wrong with that at all. Like, you know, I say this half out of... I tease poets all of the time.

>> Devin: Yeah, I was waiting for us to shit on poetry

>> Caits: Bring it on. Bring it on. I do it too. Let's do it.

>> Brian: Right, right. Let's start shitting on everyone. No, I mean you can easily tell that there's so much there. So many times I just hear the younger MFA poets come out and it's like a word salad...

>> Caits: Right

>> Brian: ...like it tries to sound pretty and all of that shit. I don't know. I don't say this out of any form of nepotism. It's kind of like the opposite of the stuff that Devin writes. Like the MFA poets... there's so many of them that don't have anything to say yet. There's just this reaching for profundity but it's just not...

>> Caits: Well you have to live in order to write.

>> Brian: You have to live. Like it doesn't matter what age you are but there is a correlation between that and someone like Matthew where it's like... even on a craft-based sense, every word does so much work. It's because of that. And he's obviously very talented.

>> Devin: You also don't have to live a certain conception of what it is to live in order to write

>> Brian: Right

>> Caits: That's right.

>> Devin: Then you can apply that same statement to people making stereotypical comments about people in prison

>> Caits: Sure

>> Devin: Like your life doesn't have to be a generic version of a struggle in order to write something profound

>> Brian: I totally agree. Suffering isn't the only thing that writing needs.

>> Devin: Yeah

>> Caits: Well I think too, you get a poet or a writer like Matthew who is exceptionally talented across genres and a very serious writer, and I think what you're getting at is we can always borderline on stereotypes when we make generalizations.

>> Devin: Sure

>> Caits: But what you're getting at I think is that somebody who has the skill and ability to translate some of the deepest questions and themes of humanity and some of those deepest themes and questions of humanity happen in spaces like prison because it's such a hyper-reality in a specific way.

>> Devin: Yeah

>> Brian: Yeah and I will say that's why our tagline is "Books that Matter" and we try so hard to not make that sound so "who the fuck is trying to publish books that don't matter". But the deepest questions about humanity, like you know, not being afraid to go somewhere. And the prison industrial complex is such a good analog for this because if you don't want to look at that darkness then what are you really doing?

>> Devin: Sure

>> Caits: Well, right. And that's a space of rampant darkness. Not that all of humanity isn't but it's so concentrated there and you're so isolated and separated and all of that, you know?

>> Brian: Yeah. How is everyone doing kratom-wise?

>> Caits: I'm happy

>> Brian: Is it discernible from your default existential state?

>> Caits: I'm feeling really like... light. I often don't feel good. I have a lot of health stuff that's a bummer.

>> Brian: Oof. I'm sorry to hear that. That's the worst

>> Caits: Well I've also been exercising consistently which I think you know...

>> Brian: That helps

>> Caits: ... makes a big difference (laughs)

>> Brian: I definitely notice a sharp decline in my mental health when I stop exercising.

>> Devin: Yeah

>> Caits: Me too. Physical. Everything

>> Brian: Well Devin runs 80 miles every fucking week so...

>> Caits: I know. This guy. Impressive

>> Brian: So I guess the consensus is that kratom is great, ok? And so don't fucking ban it (laughs)

>> Devin: Don't ban Miller High Life either. The champagne of beer.

>> Caits: I can definitely get onboard with that statement. Although I think of all things... alcohol. We could talk about that another day. Even though I do drink

>> Devin: Yeah, we probably should ban it

>> Brian: I mean, I love alcohol. But honestly, I think it's honestly the worst drug.

>> Caits: We just have to have better conversations about drugs that include alcohol but no we should not have prohibition. That's a terrible idea.

>> Brian: Should we talk... Sergio's a DA. I think we can talk about that with him for sure.

>> Caits: I think we should talk everything with Sergio because he's going to have a total insider. My whole approach to these conversations is through such a specific lens but this is through the legal lens. I'm excited to hear him talk as well.

>> Brian: Yeah. Have you read his new book by any chance? "Lost Empress"?

>> Caits: No, I haven't

>> Brian: Oh my God, it's so good. Alright anyway, I'll do this closer real quick and then we can wrap it up.

>> Narrator: This episode has been the first of our two part series covering prison reform and prison writing and is brought to by Animal Riot featuring Devin Kelly and Caits Meissner and produced by Katie Rainey without whom we would be merely three of Shakespeare's thousand monkeys banging on a typewriter.