Episode 23: Bad Habits
June 20th, 2019
Hosted by Brian Birnbaum
Guests: Crystal Yeung, Sharmaine Ong, and Meher Manda
Produced by Katie Rainey
Welcome to the twenty-third episode of the Animal Riot Podcast brought to you by Animal Riot, a literary press for books that matter. Today we're talking all things rejection with three diligent, talented, and thoughtful writers in our community: Meher Manda, Crystal Yeung, and Sharmaine Ong. You'll remember Meher of An Angry Reading Series from our 9th episode, and she's come back to talk about her rejection journey alongside Crystal and Sharmaine. Join us as we go beyond rejections with this in-depth conversation, and explore what it means to be a real writer, an Asian-American writer, and more, all while watching that hideous excuse of a final episode from Game of Thrones.
>> Brian: Welcome to the 23rd episode of the Animal Riot Podcast brought to you by Animal Riot, a literary press for books that matter. I'm your host, Brian Birnbaum, And I am going to tell a story about everyone here today, starting with Crystal Yeung. You ready?
>> Crystal: Yeah.
>> Brian: Okay, good. You sure? Crystal is an almost poet. Wow, an almost poet. I don't like the...
>> Crystal: You don't like the qualifier?
>> Brian: I don't.
>> Meher: That's why she has so many words in our bio because she adds all of these qualifiers.
>> Brian: But I think it's kind of funny, though. Okay. Crystal is an almost poet and holds an MFA in creative writing from the College of New Rochelle. She received her B A in English literature and was a part of the language and literacy MA program at CCNY. Her writing has been published or is forthcoming in Ravid Catastrophe Review, Poets and Writers, Perigee, and Taio?
>> Crystal: Mhm.
>> Brian: Man, wow. I have never heard of those two.
>> Sharmaine: Perigee is with Apogee.
>> Brian: Perigee is with Apogee? Okay, cool. She's a recipient of the 2017 Amy Award, serves as poetry committee chairwoman for the Pen Prison writing program, which I'm trying to be a part of. Shout out, Caits Meissner. Because you said Meezner or something.
>> Crystal: No, I said Meissner.
>> Brian: You fucking liar. (laughter)
>> Crystal: You're just a bad listener.
>> Brian: And is on staff for Apogee Journal, which is where Perigee is from, as now I know. We're also here with Sharmaine Ong. Is that right?
>> Sharmaine: Like long but without the L.
>> Brian: Ong. Ok. Should I get it? Should I hit it?
>> Crystal: You're overthinking it.
>> Brian: Because if you say long then you don't say the g.
>> Sharmaine: Yeah you don't say the g. So it's Ong.
>> Brian: It's like with your tonsils where they come together.
>> Sharmaine: Yeah, exactly.
>> Brian: Okay. Sharmaine graduated from the University of New Mexico with a bachelors of arts and sciences in creative writing and has completed her MFA at the College in New Rochelle. Wow. Well, Harlem campus. Everyone here is from New Rochelle. Wow, and also bachelor of arts and sciences in creative writing?
>> Sharmaine: So when you get your bachelors at the University of New Mexico, you're separated into, like, different schools. And so the humanities school is within the arts and science school.
>> Brian: Okay, Got it. Her creative work has been published or will soon be published in track for journal, Lit dot Cat. Do I have to say that?
>> Sharmaine: It's Lit Cat?
>> Brian: Okay, cause it's late. I have a link, right here. I can go to it if I want. You can't stop me. Lit Cat, Hippocampus magazine... I love that. That's great... and elsewhere. And where, please to welcome back the ever prickly yet becoming... she's flicking me off. I also flicked off a text message from Trump last night. It is on my instagram. Please check it out. It was fun. Meher Mundha.
>> Meher: You've got it.
>> Brian: I know. I killed it.
>> Meher: Third time's the charm.
>> Brian: In case you forgot, Meher is a poet, short story writer, journalist and curator from Mumbai, India, currently based in New York City. Of course, she earned her MFA in fiction from the College of New Rochelle, of course, where she founded the literary journal The Canopy Review, which is great. She is 1/2 of an Angry Reading Series which we had on episode... Go find out.
>> Meher: Nine. Dear Baby.
>> Brian: Yes. And is currently at work on her debut collection of poetry. Her debut chat book, Busted Models, is forthcoming from No Dear Magazine in Fall 2019. I like that title. That's great. All right, so I just made a very difficult task for Katie to cut that intro because I just fucked it up. Sorry, Katie. Should I do that again?
K: It's fine.
>> Brian: Okay, I think it's kind of funny. (laughs)
>> Meher: Leave it as is.
>> Brian: Yes. It was just awkward silences with Brian figuring out how to read words.
>> Crystal: Brian's a writer.
>> Brian: Ok we're going to start off by talking about rejections. And I do want to have, like, a little prologue and just say that we have the last episode of Game of Thrones on silent in the background. Tyrion is currently walking through the nuclear fallout, just somber and despairing, and forlorn.
>> Meher: With the one expression he's worn for the last three seasons.
>> Brian: Yeah, Yeah. I can't wait till we talk about this Meher. Okay. So yeah, let's talk about rejections first. Because I reject this last episode and So that's going to be the segue.
>> Meher: I reject the last season.
>> Brian: Good. Me too, but not yet. Okay, so yeah. So we are doing rejections because we are a press. It is difficult. I hate it. How do you guys feel about it?
>> Meher: Being rejected?
>> Sharmaine: Rejecting.
>> Brian: Yeah. You start Meher, because you started your own thing.
>> Meher: I mean, it's like so The Canopy Review, Crystal and Sharmaine are a part of it, too. And Crystal is the poetry editor. And Sharmaine is the non fiction editor. So in many ways, at least with the first issue, we kind of did it by ourselves that we didn't have a massive team. It was just us. And when you're working from behind a literary journal, it is slightly easier because you're not the face... none of us are the face of the journal. We've passed on the baton and there is another editorial team. So in a way, when the canopy of you gives out a rejection, which it has to because you can only accept, like, 20 yard pieces, it's fine, you know. But we were careful when we were drafting the rejection email because again, we're a new journal. We wanted to make sure that when we were drafting it, I remember when I drafted it, I sent it to all of them. Said, Does this look OK? Should I make it friendly? Or so that we want these people to reapply and submit this stuff again? Um so it's easier to do that as the Angry Reading Series, though It gets very tricky because in many ways Chelsea and I become the face of an Angry Reading Series, there's nobody that we can hide behind. And every time we have a reading series and we have people coming as an audience, they come up to us and they want to read and really keep very enthusiastically. Yes, please turn in your work, and sometimes that work is just not good.
>> Brian: Does it feel weird that you like, even if it's a brief, like personal connection and then you read it?
>> Meher: Yeah, because now they know our face. They know who to blame if they haven't received a reply back. But the Canopy Review it's a journal. People get rejected by journals all the time. It's a part of the whole writing process, but with an Angry Reading, it's always tricky. Fortunately, most of them are anonymous, not anonymous. The impersonal submissions that we would see people I found it on the Internet or anywhere have more often than not been quite good. And we've been able to make space for a lot of them in our series. And then there are some that don't work out. And so we say, Hey, I don't think this work is for us at this point. I mean, that's the standard line, right? It's not for us because it's not our job to give them critique. I mean, as a reading serious, we're very broad. Anger can be interpreted in whatever forms you want to. So in a way, I think we're very... we can make space for a lot of writing as is, and the quality has always been interesting. There's been very high brow literary prose and poetry, and there's been slam poetry and there's also been, you know, interesting persona poetry.
>> Brian: Which I would say classifies as like qualification rather than quality.
>> Meher: Qualification, but also in terms of not everything would fall under the blanket of literary work. There's some that's a lot more popular, but they're still... They have an element to them. There's humor or there's introspection or this questioning that really works. And sometimes it just doesn't crack it. So yeah, it's always tricky, I guess being rejected is fine.
>> Crystal: She's okay with it. I'm not so OK with being rejected.
>> Brian: Being rejected? Yeah.
>> Meher: I mean, I'm not okay with it, but like, that's like...
>> Crystal: She says it with like glee in her face.
>> Meher: But I'm not gonna cry and break out. I have a lot of stress. (laughter)
>> Brian: Oh, yeah. I forgot to introduce our episode's brand of fuckery. I got to do that little backlog. I'm gonna do it real quick. Okay. All right. Yeah. This episode's brand of fuckery is brought to you by megadoses of vitamins. We're on a detox over here at the house of Burnbaum and Rainey. On that green tea, niacin, vitamin C, chia seed soaked in water. And Katie is beet red right now from a niacin flush.
>> Meher: What's interesting is you didn't use this moment to...
>> Brian: Talk about Kratom? I've done it many times. I don't want to, you know. I don't want to overkill it. And also, the FDA is just really getting on my ass these days.
>> Meher: Which one of the presidential candidates you said was trying to ban kratom?
>> Brian: Well, Trump's Cabinet is like...
>> Meher: Well fuck Trump
>> Brian: OK, anyway, we interrupted you, go ahead. How about why are rejections so terrible? Other than the fact that they are so terrible? (laughs)
>> Crystal: Just open your Submittable page.
>> Brian: That's what I was going to ask you. I was gonna ask you, like, don't you just like everyone's Submittable page probably looks the same, right? It's a bunch of rejections. It's a shit ton for everyone.
>> Crystal: And I think, you know, in the whole kind of general in your professional life of both writing or maybe like a job application, it's a numbers game.
>> Brian: Which feels weird, right? It feels like, Okay, so if it's a numbers game like, doesn't it feel kind of strange when someone picks it up? Does it feel that way to you or do you feel like this does the numbers game disconnect you from like the actual decision that they make?
>> Crystal: It's both. I mean in the realm of, like, job applications. It's like, Oh, for this one position that is entry level, we have over 100 applicants and then we interviewed 10 or 20 and then it's one. They're hiring one person.
>> Brian: And do you feel when you hire that one person like we know this is the person?
>> Crystal: Well, I would never know. I was never the hired person.
>> Brian: This Is your hypothetical? Yeah, I got it.
>> Crystal: So it's like I feel like it's in a way like your skills, your hard skills on paper are being validated when you are selected for that initial vetting. Then ultimately, there's something that I don't know disqualifies you. And it's hard.
>> Brian: And you don't know what it is.
>> Crystal: You don't know what it is, so it's hard to reconcile with, like the feeling of or even internalizing your own... I don't know unknown or unseen shortcomings. Like what have I done wrong?
>> Brian: And that's a good segue to like the other side of rejections, which is when you try to reject, we try to personalize every single rejection.
>> Crystal: I believe you don't really have the time.
>> Brian: It's impossible to do every single one. It really is like it is just too much. But you're the reason I asked about this. The disconnect is because when I've gotten self published, even like the first time I got something published, it felt like it did feel slightly afterwards. It felt good, but it also felt like this is kind of a numbers game, and so it does feel like almost like my story was picked out of a hat, you know, like to some degree. So I don't know how to change that. I don't know if it's been different in the past. Like maybe it's more personal. I have realized, you know, for better or worse, personal relationships do help you get published. I mean, Katie's helped me get published because of personal relationships. Our producers.
>> Crystal: Shout out to Katie. Beet red.
>> Brian: Yeah. She's just... You gotta get out of the sun. (laughter) Sharmaine. How do you feel about rejections?
>> Sharmaine: Being the person who's rejected? I think at this point, I'm desensitized in a way because in high school that's when I started really wanting to become a writer. And I had a teacher who is like, You have to be realistic. If you want to become one, you have to know that sometimes you're not going to get published after sending 10 submissions. You know, sometimes you have to wait longer than that. Sometimes you will have to rewrite your draft over and over and over again until someone finds it worthy for their magazine. And I really internalized that. And I think it has helped with their rejection because I don't feel sad anymore. I don't feel like I'm worthless. I feel more like it's just part of the process, part of the process. And maybe I do need to rewrite my draft.
>> Brian: Wow, very humble. I like that. It's true. It's all very true.
>> Meher: Also something that was very interesting recently on Twitter by a very popular poet whose name... like I don't remember who it was because someone I follow and someone who's very well followed, who spoke about...
>> Brian: Wow, that was serious.
>> Meher: I just remember it being someone who has a credential, you know, an important credential. He spoke about essentially the way the whole submission cycle works and that you see these, like, popular clique of poets... He was talking about poetry in specific that you've seen every journal all the time, right, who gets, like, repeat, who published, you know, multiple times in a year and all of their work comes through solicitation. It's like all of them because they've had a book that they've had that one project and they're just constantly getting solicited. Which is why, in his words, he said that a lot of their solicited book is not even that great as compared to when you actually read their books, which is, you know, top class. But solicited work is it fields off an achievable quality. Right? So you send in your work thinking, Oh, they've published this, you know, brilliant poet. But the poem seems something that I have tried, you know, achievable in terms of what I'm trying to do with my work. And you turn in, but you're the one who gets rejected. So there is this dissonance you don't quite understand because all of these journals say...
>> Brian: Can you explain what you mean by achievable?
>> Meher: Achievable, I mean that when you look at a poem or prose on you see that it achieves, you know, achieves a certain distinction of quality, right? It gets its own sentence level, it's great, on a narrative level it's great, on a metaphorical device it's good, it's good.
>> Brian: It's a good (laughs)
>> Meher: It's a good piece. But you know, they're pieces which come across which are just, like brilliant, right? But I'm not talking about those pieces that just like punch you in the face and make you feel shitty about your own talent. I'm talking about good pieces that are good and you try to compare that with your own work that you've created and you've stored in Google Drive over and over again. And you think, Yeah, I think I have a poem That's but that achieves that, you know, in terms of it achieves the same value. So maybe I could send it to this journal because they've published this person, I'm sure they could make a space for me. But then you send your best work and that gets rejected and you're very confused by that dissidence. And I think that happens a lot.
I don't know if Crystal and Sharmaine feel the same way, which is what he was saying in that, because their work is being solicited whereas your work is being chosen from, you know, among a bunch of submission pool of submissions where, like you said it critics, I think, like one stroke of success, some kind, to reach that level of consistent publications again, again, over and over again. And I'm starting to realize that more now, like speaking to what Sharmaine said, I didn't have any idea that literary journals existed or that so many existed, or that there was this whole competitive submission process until I actually moved to the US. Then I moved to the US, I started doing the MFA and I didn't have anything to submit.
>> Brian: What did you think was the system?
>> Meher: You publish a book. That was my system. I mean, there's like a couple of prestigious literary journals.
>> Brian: I don't remember my, like, edification of how it works. I don't remember at all. I remember I just started writing like, long form when I was really when I was, like, in my early twenties, and I was trying to write like novels, you know? So maybe I didn't know either.
>> Meher: There are a few prestigious literary journals and India that have been going on for a really long time. But they like they get printed, like, you know, yearly or quarterly. They have, You know, they're very somber and patient with their work, but I didn't realize that there was this, like, you could actually figure out a way. And if you did this with all of your being in, like, send your pieces to 100 places, you could maybe crack a few. I didn't realise that. So I moved here, and then I think a year, year and 1/2 just been figuring out what the whole system was like. And I think I've only just figured out how to, you know, how to build my submission toward a particular literary journal.
>> Brian: Yeah, I don't think I ever really figured it out.
>> Meher: Even until a few months ago, it was just like sending the five poems that you know any random five pieces or any random short piece. But now I think there's more consciousness, and because there's more consciousness, it takes more time. And because it takes more time, you can't submit it as much as you want to. You always have to be selective about who you send it to and who you don't.
>> Crystal: To Hop off on that. On the whole, kind of like there's like a type of writer where you are... You're a big name writer and people solicit from that person versus an emerging new talent. I'm wondering if there's a sort of superfluous like, kind of like the same voices are being solicited from, and that's also still like being circulated in the literary ether.
>> Brian: I would have to assume that's true.
>> Crystal: And that's also a frustrating process.
>> Brian: And it works honestly. It probably permeates so many niche commercial sectors of our society, but like, yeah, you can even see in the big Five publishing houses. We were talking about this the other day at a round table that we did with Paragraph about how, like, yeah, I mean, everyone knows that they make their money off a few writers, and then they just kind of, like, pick people and try to win the lottery with others, I guess. And so yeah, it's like those same writers are getting all the recognition, I'm sure. And that happens in, like, the New York literary scene too, you know, I mean, I only know a few poets names because, like, you know, I'm really into, like, fiction and nonfiction, so I'm not the most fluent and, like, you know, all I know you guys are famous to me. (laughter) Seriously. Yeah, it's because, like those same names are just repeated over and over and over again, you know, like I see like, Oh, they got published their reading here, you know? So, yeah, I don't know how to subvert that, because, like, the thing is like, don't we all want a part of that?
>> Meher: Yeah. It's the clique you're not a part of that. It's like high school all over. Because I remember distinctly a year and 1/2 ago, and I spoke to kids about this at some point there. There was some Twitter thread that was happening, some chain of like fun tweets. But it was like these 20 most popular poets just talking to each other being somebody like And it was fascinating to watch because it had reached like a chain of 400 tweets, and I realized it was just those people talking to each other. And it was literally like, I mean, I would imagine, you know, high school cafeteria and sitting there looking at the cool table and going God, I want a piece of that, but also resenting them. But in many ways you can resent them because they get set like Crystal said that they get circulated so they're used to each other. They form a friendship. They form their own relationships, you know and good, but like you are subverting it like with the Animal Riot Press. The Angry Reading series subverts it.
Every reading series in New York that I've attended or read at have had at least tried to mix their talent up, even if they have, like a you know, great, you know, popular writer speaking, they will try to pair them up with emerging talent. It's hard to have that expectation from processes that are concerned with being profitable. But I think a lot of Indie presses are doing that, and I think that's interesting. I always make it. I always realize this every time I go to the Brooklyn Book Festival, when I see all of these processes because you see them all in one spot and you become aware, they put all their books out and you think, Oh, you know, it's very interesting, the kind of writing: experimental, dynamic. Just some of them are gobsmacked weird. And it's like, How did this thing get published? Oh, no, it's because you published and you decided to bet on this and that's great. Look, I don't have these expectations from the Big Five.
>> Brian: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, just a note on what you said about being profitable, like the main reason I want us to be profitable is so that we conserve our writers, you know, like that's really it. So we can just, like, put it all back in and give them more publicity and, you know, help them.
>> Meher: Always the returns.
>> Brian: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, rejections. Do you guys have any other? They're sad in our background.
>> Sharmaine: Our background is sad.
>> Brian: That's a good one. What is the worst rejection? And it can be from either end, you know that you've either sent. I think I'll stay like it's really quick for me. The first the 1st was the hardest for me. Probably not as the writer, I'm speaking more as, like the editor.
>> Meher: I think Crystal I might have the same first rejection.
>> Crystal: The Margins? Shout out to AWW.
>> Meher: But I think, you know, hop off on that. My first rejection was actually sort of a fun reality check, because I've got I mean, I'll get accepted because I didn't know how this whole cycle worked throughout. How many writers, this fucking country or this fucking world has right? You think they're like 15 writers like It's like, you know, I could get it.
>> Crystal: There was a pool of 127 applicants for The Margins.
>> Meher: Yeah, The Margins? Yeah. That hit... I'm guessing for you too.
>> Crystal: I openly cried. I openly wept.
>> Brian: What is The Margins?
>> Crystal: It is a fellowship. The Margins Fellowship is with the Asian American Writers Workshop. They take four fellows under the age of 30 in the genres of nonfiction, fiction, and poetry? And it's like a yearlong fellowship. And you get to go to a Malay Colony and a $5k stipend. This is to say that this encourages Asian American writers to go apply.
>> Meher: And raise the applicant numbers.
>> Crystal: Flood them. (laughter)
>> Meher: I'm still four years away from 30. And Sharmaine is like 6. It's a great fellowship. You get to also pair up with an established Asian American writer from your literary genre to work with and, you know, to be guided by for the next one year. You get, like, free office space at their building. Shout out to them. This is a really, really good fellowship. And so for me, it was the second time. The first time I applied. Apparently I wasn't supposed to apply because I was still a student, but I didn't know because they're, you know, their FAQ page at the time didn't have this. So I went ahead and applied, and they told me oh we didn't apply because you don't have to. It's like, Oh, well, I'm gonna be rejected anymore. But I made it to the semifinals and I was very excited. I said, Oh, next year I have to crack this thing. next year, you know, it has to be mine, and Crystal and I, both got short-listed. So there are 10 people who are shortlisted, and then you have an interview and I had a two hour interview and I was like, any interview that last two hours has to be mine. Because it was a great conversation, and I thought the interviewer who was wonderful loved me. I'm sure she did in her own little way is what I tried to tell myself, and then I felt like it was mine to take. I felt like this is it. I'm going to crack this. And then one week, two weeks, three weeks and a few m. Lt was supposed to hear back about this, like, last week. So what's happening? No, no, no. And then? Yeah, and then we It's a good old good, nice projection that came, which was very heartbreaking. Yeah, I felt like it would. Yeah, I really wanted that. I'm sure you did too.
>> Crystal: I mean, I felt like it was more important to you because it gave you a reason to stay in the US.
>> Meher: Yeah, for me, it would have really helped my visa. For me, my thought process was If I don't get it now and then if I don't get my visa, I will never have a shot at this process ever again. Like if I was in America, I can do it until I'm 30 which is a weird agist requirement.
>> Brian: It's also strange how that thought occurs not only in rejections, but mainly in rejections. Like the idea that this is it. Like if this doesn't happen, there's nothing for me. You know, it's like doom and gloom, but this, like that, like an ultimatum.
>> Meher: But to me it was a real ultimatum. Because everything else is fine. Everything else is OK, Didn't get it this time. We'll apply next year, like, you know, the Dorothy, Group Luli.
>> Crystal: Sergeant. Actually we should also talk about Poets House.
>> Meher: With those things that always feels like I can next year, sure. Even with regular submissions it feels fine because you know you can. I can always go back to a prestigious literary journal. I could still get published. That's not the issue. But with this, it felt like the requirement it was you had to be in New York for the entirety of the fellowship. Maybe not the entirety of the fellowship, but you needed to come for a few meetings and readings, and there are a couple of requirements, so it felt like, oh, if I got it, it would really help my visa. And then if I don't get it, I may not get to apply for it again because I may not get the visa. So, you know, we'll find out in, like, two months. (laughter)
>> Brian: Tenterhooks roll on tenterhooks. Okay? Yeah, Sharmaine what's your worst?
>> Sharmaine: I think my worst rejection was in the summer last year. We had just graduated with MFA and I was really down already, mainly because I was having trouble finding a job. It seemed like a lot of things weren't going right for me. My health was declining. I found out that I had, like, gallbladder problems, And I recently had it taken out in December, but yeah, So I applied for this fellowship, and I was short-listed. There was, like, I guess, 400 applicants.
>> Brian: So close but no cigar is the worst?
>> Sharmaine: Yeah.
>> Brian: Yeah, I, uh yeah. No, I think that is the worst. It's just weird because it's totally like it's almost totally irrational because it is like, you know, you didn't get it, but like to get closer is probably better. But it hurts more.
>> Sharmaine: They actually told me the reason why I didn't get it. Part of the fellowship was they want to publish the work that you've submitted for the application. And they're like, Yeah, the ending of your story, we just felt it wasn't fully fleshed out. And I was like, Okay, I understand that. But also, like this whole fellowship was to help flush it out and to create more work and things like that. I felt very offended.
>> Meher: The requirements of a lot of these fellowships, I mean, regular submissions. And, you know, regular let submissions are fine. You know, they have their own. I mean, we run a little journal. We ran the journal. We understand that the requirements are very arbitrary. And by the end of the day, it's very subjective. So I can still take that with a grain of salt and say it. It's you know, it's okay. It's according to a bunch of editors and readers. It's fine. A lot of these fellowships have these very arbitrary, vague requirements that one size fits all but is not. It's really not right? Because at the end of the day it's very hard to sort of be eloquent in these descriptions. A lot of them go by emerging writers, for instance. But what is emerging?
>> Crystal: I think it varies by institution too. Those who run it like under 30 or maybe even under 35 or you've never had your first book published.
>> Meher: The under 30 applications I take serious issue with because, I mean, it's just generally ageist. And a lot of people, you know, especially POC and women don't get to know you from certain backgrounds don't get too serious writing until much later in their lives, for whatever reason, right? So the under 30 bit automatically dismisses an entire group of writers who are actually doing serious work but who may not have had their first success yet. And we spoke about it even like the Asian American writer's fellowship, we spoke about it during the interview also because I said, you know, I was asked what I felt about that, and I said, I don't necessarily agree with it, but you know, I understand it's an institutional policy. The only emerging writer but I do understand, is the amount of money that they're giving is how I choose to understand the definition of emerging. If they're offering a lot of money, that means their definition of emerging is still like mid level success. They don't expect you to simply have what you want.
>> Brian: Wouldn't you want to give more money to people that need it more?
>> Meher: Well, if you're asking me? Yeah.
>> Brian: But then again, that would have to do less with quality than...
>> Meher: Of course, qualities, I think, are very subjective. But quality again is the general yardstick for all fellowship. So imagine for all applications and all acceptances, but I think if they're offering a lot of money, what I understand is that they're looking for a strong dedication in your work.
>> Brian: Which you have to show for if you're going to put up that much money.
>> Meher: And your dedication, unfortunately, does not come from a rejected Submittable pile You could have said, Oh, actually, I have submitted to like 100 places and I've been rejected at all 100. No, your dedication is having submitted to 200 but been accepted at, like 25. And those 25 are the ones that count, and I understand it's institutional. It's, you know, I get it like we've had this conversation Crystal and I, about the Ruth Lilly Dorothy Sergeant fellowship, which, you know everybody wants. Every poet wants it at some point. I mean, their list of fellows fellows is the kind of list you want to be a part of. You want your name to be in there, but it's very interesting because their definition of emerging was very different from mine. The first time I applied it was hours, and it was very different. But I understand because the amount they're offering and the prestige of being a you know, poets and writers know it's poetry foundation, you know, Poetry Foundation Ruth Lily fellow needs to come with a certain reflection of success, at least some reflection of basic success.
>> Brian: Yeah, Yeah.
>> Crystal: I would also like to add that I would like to think that rejections also keeps you humble (laughs)
>> Brian: I was just about to ask the question what do you think rejections do for you guys? Because I do think they are... If I would like I mean, they're it's, like, imminently necessary that I got rejected because I was a shit writer before I got accepted, You know what I mean? But at the same time, in a hypothetical world that my shit writing would have been accepted, it would have just kept me as a shit writer, you know? But the other side of that is getting criticism, but anyways, continue. Yeah, like that was about to ask that.
>> Crystal: Yeah, I think it keeps you humble. And depending on the context, my personal context is that I know that I'm a terrible, terribly bad writer. And the context within context is that I have terrible habits. I don't write as often as I should.
>> Brian: Do you truly feel like you're a bad writer?
>> Crystal: Bad habits, bad habits.
>> Brian: Okay, that makes more sense.
>> Crystal: So just really shorten it. I think I'm a writer. You know who may be sitting on a pile of talent. Who knows? Sitting on ideas.
>> Brian: I think it's trying to figure out whether you're a psychopath. I think if you wonder whether you're a psychopath, you're like, not really a psychopath. (laughter) Maybe you're not cultivating it as well as you might want to but...
>> Crystal: So I have this wild garden that I really should be, you know, print of yeah, pruning. And I am not doing that because I'm not a gardener.
>> Brian: What are some of the bad habits?
>> Crystal: I think everybody doesn't like you really should be working on your manuscript. You really should be trimming and working on your different parts.
>> Brian: But other than that, other than like Okay, obviously we should keep working. That's like the only way to make it better is that it is
>> Crystal: It's just procrastination.
>> Brian: Is there anything else?
>> Crystal: Like any kind of excuse to not do it? And I also...
>> Brian: Drink or what?
>> Crystal: I mean, yes, but I think I don't know anyone else here shares it, but like writerly anxiety, before you even approach the process of writing like you are second guessing.
>> Brian: That's tough. I think that speaks to how, like, long it took me to realize how bad I was. I think the 1st five or six years that I wrote, I did not realize, like, just how that I was.
>> Crystal: How bad your anxiety was?
>> Brian: How bad my writing was. Because I didn't have that anxiety. I was always like, Let's fucking do it. You know, I was just, like, chug a cup of coffee and be like, I'm fucking ready to roll, you know? But yeah, I think I would have been a lot better served if I had somehow found it in me to realize how terrible I was and been more humble. I don't know if I've said this on any episode on the spot gas yet, but I remember the first, like criticism I got that wasn't from a friend on a novel I was working on. It was to a friend's dad. So, like, you know, we knew each other, but like not, you know, wasn't. It was. We were all buddy, buddy or whatever. I think we'd like smoked weed together once or something on, like I sent him the novel or like, the 1st 20 pages or whatever, and he sends it back. He's like, I didn't even get through the first page. Like you're using all these big words like blah, blah, blah. And I send back this angry email and he replies, And he goes, now that was good writing (laughter).
>> Meher: You should read that at the Angry Reading Series. (laughter)
>> Brian: Actually, I don't even know if I have that email address anymore. So speaking of angry writing, like this is something I should read at the Angry Reading Series. Our first workshop, it was with all of my friends, except for Katie was a year above me. So, like, I didn't really know her as well. It was with our original rabbits. You know, we had, like, Jared and Devin. We were all in the same class. Now George is a poet. So he wasn't but Seth. Seth we haven't had him on the podcast yet, but, anyway, I think this is a touchy subject within the literary community is I think a lot of people like hate DFW now. I think it's good. I think it was a fad that, like we're kind of like moving past, though. Anyway, I love him. I think writing is great. I don't like, you know, I'm not going to make judgements on his character judgments like, you know, But I think his writings are amazing. And so everyone brought in a master story one per week that we all had to read the week before, like leading up. And, you know, I felt like I was very respectful to everyone's master story like, You know what? Someone's favorite writer favorite short story favorite like section, Whatever. Like I'm like, I'm trying to see the value in it, whatever. But after I brought in a section of infinite jest, I got an email from a classmate just basically saying like, you know, I don't like, I still don't get this like, I guess the pool one was all right, which is like she's referring to Forever Overhead is a short story he wrote that my friend Jared had brought in. And like, it was just really, like, digging into me for some reason. And so it was me, Seth and Jared like all three of us, and she just says, this to us. And then So Seth starts off with a very like, composed response and said in typical Seth Katz fashion, fashion, you know, and then next is Jared and his typical like aloof, you know, implicitly go fuck yourself, like, you know, and they're pretty short. And then I write and I respond last and it's just this, like, wall of fucking theory, you know, just, like just unleashed and I think Jared to this day thinks it's the best thing I have ever written (laughter).
>> Meher: So she went off on the story about you?
>> Brian: No, the master stories were these stories that we would bring in from people like stories that we loved. Like, you know, someone brought in like a Good Man Is Hard To Find? A good woman?
>> Crystal: Flannery O'Connor?
>> Brian: Yeah. A Good Man Is Hard To Find You. There's a really good album called a Good Woman Is Hard To Find. So I think anger drives me to write better (laughs).
>> Crystal: Especially if they're insulting something that you like.
>> Brian: Yeah, well, that was the thing. And like I thought... I apologized afterwards. Like I was like, Look, I'm sorry. That was that was too much. But at the same time, like, you know, it felt like she went out of her way to tell me that my taste was bad. When it's like, I don't know what you want me to say. I think a lot of other people like DFW. Like I don't know you like I don't know what the end results are going. Be here like, you know. I don't know. Yeah. Our producers want you to read... We haven't done our Game of Thrones talk. Should we not do that? Meher is really against it. Fuck it. I'll say right now that we are, we are past... Where are we?
>> Meher: We're at the point that she says, Uncle, please sit.
>> Brian: Yeah, right. Right. Exactly.
>> Sharmaine: And Robin Arryn is a babe now.
>> Meher: He's not a babe. Let's OK, let's cool it. He's decently watchable.
>> Brian: My God, that was supposed to be the little boy who was like sucking on mom's tit.
>> Crystal: It was plastic.
>> Meher: Oh, yeah. Obviously, that would be weird.
>> Brian: I mean, for a 10 year old boy, even for an actor. That would be very strange (laughter)
>> Meher: Even an artist?
>> Brian: Even an artist
>> Crystal: A thespian.
>> Brian: A burgeoning thespian sucking on a random woman's tits. I just saw the Red Wedding Episode too and that was his wedding.
>> Crystal: Wasn't that Edmure?
>> Meher: Yeah that was Edmure.
>> Brian: Yeah. I used to really like this show. Up until it started sucking.
>> Crystal: Up until Olenna died.
>> Brian: I was just talking to our producers yesterday about how awesome of the character she was.
>> Meher: And she had a great death. I didn't have a problem with her death because her death was great and it was very fitting.
>> Brian: I just want to say this is the preparation for us not talking about Game of Thrones like this is all leading up to us not talking about it, because we don't want to do the thing that everyone else is doing and talk about it. So, like, let's talk not... Let's not talk about it.
>> Meher: As a side note, you should do a full podcast episode on Game of Thrones.
>> Brian: Are you serious? But wouldn't it be so unoriginal?
>> Meher: No, because it's a bunch of writers critiquing the show's screenplay.
>> Brian: Ok let's table this non talk, talking that we are not doing.
>> Meher: And invite me back.
>> Brian: I'll invite you back. Of course. You're the writer of the...
>> Meher: And I wrote about this show ad nauseam.
>> Brian: All right, cool. Yeah, we'll do that on another episode. I like it. I think everyone's breathing a sigh of relief. Our producers want to know where you're writing these Game of Thrones pannings?
>> Meher: So you can find my Game of Thrones rants on bustle.
>> Brian: Beautiful. So, yeah, I'm about to dig in. And it's only season eight, though, right?
>> Meher: It's only season eight.
>> Brian: Yeah, I wish you would do it if you had done other seasons, too, because it's all rippage, right?
>> Meher: Yeah, me too bruh.
>> Brian: Because it deserves it. There's no defending. There's no defending what's happened. Let's move on. We're going to do this. We'll do a whole episode. I love this idea. Do you want to read first? It's a good transition.
>> Crystal: Yeah, I guess. I have a few poems. The first poem I'll be reading is "Dispersion of Light", and this is an epigraph. It follows:
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>> Brian: Ah, wow. Really, really bad Crystal. You're such a bad poet.
>> Crystal: Bad habits.
>> Brian: Yeah. Okay. That was great. You want to do one more?
>> Crystal: Yeah.
>> Brian: Okay. Cool.
>> Crystal: This is called "I'm Really Bad at Leaving Because I Don't Know Where to Go".
>> Meher: You're bad at a lot of things. (laughter)
>> Crystal: I am
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You can read Crystal’s work here.
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>> Brian: Oh wow. I love that ending.
>> Meher: I love that poem. This is the one you read at the Winter Tangerine reading.
>> Crystal: Yes.
>> Meher: Yeah. I love this.
>> Crystal: Thank you for listening for the second time.
>> Brian: Ampersand of the heart. I like that. It's a great line.
>> Sharmaine: Am I next?
>> Brian: You don't have to. Do you want to?
>> Sharmaine: Sure. I've been working sort of on this collection of prose poetry, and it's titled "Your Body is Not an Invitation", and they're like little vignettes. I guess I'll just read one or two.
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You can find out more about Sharmaine’s work here.
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>> Brian: Was that recent?
>> Sharmaine: No, that was maybe two or three years ago.
>> Brian: Yeah. That's a very interesting one to pick. I liked it.
>> Sharmaine: Thank you.
>> Brian: Yeah, I didn't think it was recent just cause it was like, you know, it felt very pointed.
>> Sharmaine: Yeah. I feel like now, as I've gotten older and that I've been living on my own, I feel that if that were to happen again, I would be able to say something. But I think when I was, what, 21? I still didn't have a voice. And I think I'm finding it now or close to having found it.
>> Brian: Yeah, yeah.
>> Meher: Am I next?
>> Brian: Yeah.
>> Meher: So I read this poem for the first time last night and so much of that was because at the Lumina launch, by the way, shout out to the 18th issue.
>> Brian: I feel like someone else should be saying this for you.
>> Meher: Saying what?
>> Brian: You won a prize.
>> Meher: Oh, yeah.
>> Crystal: Oh that's an afterthought.
>> Sharmaine: Yeah, you won a prize.
>> Brian: This episode is definitely gonna be called Bad Habits. (laughter) Thank you Crystal.
>> Meher: I was sort of teetering towards the fact that Brian and I are both in the issue. Yay Brian. So I was there and I didn't read the winning poem. You can check it out on the Lumina website.
>> Brian: And the issue is beautiful. The artwork is unbelievable.
>> Meher: Yeah, just wait for the Canopy Review. Actually, Sharmaine was with me when I wrote this, and it was this poem I was just, you know, generally been feeling really conflicted about home and from India have been feeling very conflicted about that. And then recently, India held its general elections, the results of which were announced two days ago. And I've been seething since then. I have been absolutely, you know, devastated.
>> Brian: I saw he won pretty handily.
>> Meher: Yeah, it was a very easy majority which was won by the Hindu right wing nationalist leaders. So and he won reelection. So it's just after five years of absolute shit. So this poem sort of felt cathartic to read this poem out loud and to sort of acknowledge the things that sort of are dampening home and whatever way they can. So here goes. This poem is titled "Here Now and Again".
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Meher’s Poem will be available in her forthcoming chapbook, Busted Models. You can read more of Meher’s work here.
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>> Brian: Well, that was that was very good.
>> Crystal: It was just good.
>> Brian: It was very good. Too many too many women have died to give the story any meaning, is that the line? It was great. That could have been recited at the end of Game of Thrones. (laughter)
>> Meher: Just as a footnote, because India's called Mother India. It's a country that's feminized, and She is. It's always like even in Hindi, It's Bhaarat Maata, which is, you know, Mother India So it's very ironic to me, to feminize a country that so easily preys on its own women.
>> Brian: Yeah. Let's talk about Asian American writing.
>> Meher: I think it's fitting.
>> Brian: Why don't you lead us into it, Meher? I am but a mediator.
>> Meher: I think you should lead us into it.
>> Brian: As a non Asian American?
>> Meher: No, you should say that we're also here with, like, three writers of Asian descent and what that means.
>> Brian: Now I have to do that thing where you repeat what you said? Okay? We.... (laughter)
>> Meher: I hate you.
>> Brian: Yes. So we're also here with three Asian American writers. If you didn't know by now. So yeah, we're going to talk a little bit about that And what it's like, One of which, one of whom Meher is Indian and is trying to get her visa here. I think we should start with that.
>> Meher: Really?
>> Brian: What is it like being not just an Asian American writer, but one with maybe like an uncertain future or possible expiration date, you know, for being here? I think that I think that does, Like, give a different tone to, like, you know what it's like to write here.
>> Meher: I don't consider myself Asian America. I think I consider myself a fairly and squarely South Asian.
>> Brian: And also, I mean, it's just like, what have you been here for two years?
>> Meher: Two and 1/2. It's gonna be three in August, actually.
>> Brian: Well, what would it take, do you think to call yourself an Asian American writer? Five, ten years? Because your formative years weren't here.
>> Meher: I think it's all about where your formative influences come from. And it hasn't been shaped in the, you know, under the paradigm of, you know, quote unquote American culture, whatever that means. I think Sharmaine and Crystal are better suited to answer the Asian American aspect of it because I think there's a lot more that it takes to be able to unearth your own stories and your own... the history of your own family in a very white space, which is what the literary community has been or is. For me personally, I can speak about the visa, though, because that's very interesting in that I understand the banality of immigration. I understand that it is not my exclusive problem.
>> Brian: Yeah, and also like, What is it like to be right under that kind of pressure, you know, specifically like not to not to, you know, wash out all those other circumstances obviously incredibly difficult. But, you know, I was just speaking to people who you know, there are people here on fellowships and like summer situations like, you know?
>> Meher: So I feel like what is the part of this whole process that really gets to me is that I don't get to write with discipline. I have to write competitively.
>> Brian: Bad habits
>> Meher: No, it's not just about you don't you mean discipline is great. But every writer, I think, knows that they have their own journey to take. They may publish a book five years from now, 10 years from now, but that is what everybody is trying to work towards. For me, it's like I am on speed. Like I'm constantly having to get the publications. I have to get projects. I have to get stuff on my resume. So it becomes a numbers game like we were talking about. And it stops being a pure aesthetic practice or an artistic practice.
>> Brian: Or spiritual.
>> Meher: Or spiritual practice.
>> Brian: That's essentially what I was alluding to before about, Like it feeling like a lottery at some point, you know? Yeah, it's like, once this it's like that disconnection. I hate it for you. Yeah, it feels because I purposefully didn't try to get published despite how highly I implicitly thought of myself. I didn't even try to get published until, like 27 26 27.
>> Meher: Yeah, and those choices I don't get to make. I don't get to sit back with my poetry manuscript that I've been working on for the last year and 1/2 and say, You know, I'm going to try to make this a better version of itself. I'm going to be committed to its, you know, its literary value and not to any outside forces that demand, you know, sudden immediate success. But I don't get to make those choices. I have to constantly sort of push myself. Try to get a book deal. Try to get a full book deal. Try to, you know, get those accolades to be able to serve my visa on. And that is the part I don't like. It's not necessarily, again, like I said, not a very exclusive experience. And I think all our demands are patience and time and pause, which you know, and everybody applying for the artist visa, whatever stream they come from, has to deal with that. It's just my situation and that rejection sometimes feels harder because not only for its own value, but because of what it could be, what it could mean in the larger scheme of things, which is interesting. So I'm applying for my artist visa right now. I think.
>> Brian: On the other side, there's a lot of pressure there, and that could be that could be bad for your practice, for sure. But is there something about it that also sharpens your knife?
>> Meher: Yes.
>> Brian: Because you know, that's like there's no time for, like, shitting around.
>> Meher: Yeah, there's no time to like dilly dally. There's no time to go to fancy events. And like ohhh I'm a writer (laughter) and not actually produce anything. There's no time to...
>> Brian: Is that what you would do if you went to fancy events?
>> Meher: Yeah, why not? Who doesn't want to be that person in the party, right? But it's not because I do come from a science background and I've been a science student all my life. So I've always worked under pressure of exams and deadlines, and for me it's always been deliverables. So in a way, I think my formative training is better suited to this. I can pull it off. I may not enjoy the process very much. I wish I had more time. I wish I wasn't in a rush to, like, make things happen. But I can, you know, maneuver the demands of it. But I think you know I'm applying for it. Let's see if I don't get it, peace out America. And if I get it, I'll see you for three more years. And then it's the process again. For extension, you have to have a fresh set of accolades, so it doesn't end. The first set doesn't count. You have to prove to them that the three years you've spent here, you've had more stuff done, more things published. One of the funnier things is the requirements, they say that the things that can get you an artist visa. If you have received nominations and won a major award in your genre of work, whether that be the Pulitzer or the Oscar, the Grammy and I think that is the most hilarious thing I've ever heard, like somebody, because that's a whole other funny thing. I was in college for two years and I had only one year outside college. But it's in that one year that you have to crack every thing, because when you're in college, you can't... How many people, like actively published when they're in MFA school like everybody is just trying to hone their craft, and you are not necessarily like there are very few people who land a chap book deal when they're in the M F A program and they're still in school. People don't do that, right? So a lot of that the rush has only been in the last one year, so that's that's intense.
>> Brian: One more thing I want to ask you is up this visa... This is the assumption I have in my head. It's to stay in New York, not America. Right?
>> Meher: In America.
>> Brian: Really? Interesting.
>> Meher: Yeah, it's all of America. I could move to like after I get the visa, like literally one month later, I can move to California.
>> Brian: No, no, no, no, I'm not saying technically, I'm saying for you, it's so you like. Would you ever leave New York? It's to stay in the writing world, right? Is that what it is or not? And that's something that us little rabbits like we would want to change, like, because that's like one of our episodes we did in Arkansas. Like going around talking to other people about what the art seems like they're on. It's like that's kind of the sad fact of it is like it's not just foreigners like it's like people that don't live in America, whatever, what have you? It's what he wants to make its people, its people everywhere in this country that aren't in New York. I feel like they feel somewhat left out a little bit and, you know...
>> Meher: Yeah, I can't speak to, like living only in New York and nowhere else because I honestly don't know what the literary scene is like. I mean, though, I joked that the most West I've ever been in is America's New York.
>> Brian: Westchester, which is north of New York.
>> Meher: I've never been farther than that. I'm sure like their pockets of literary scenes in California or in Chicago, like in major urban spaces. But I'm not aware of them. I have never been. My preoccupation wasn't so much with New York or being part of the scene as much as wanting to be published. There's just so many, you know, publishers out of the top five who were publishing great work. America has the scope for that. India has had a very thriving literary industry, but it's still dominated by the top five. You have HarperCollins India and Penguin Random House. India actually has a top two.
>> Crystal: They're also very specifically like English language, right?
>> Meher: Yeah, I mean and I write in English language, but they also published regional stuff. However, the issue is that everybody else there are a few indie presses coming up in India, but they don't have that kind of reach where they can actually sell your book. Or they can actually make you give you a prominent, you know, marketing campaign, like push you. Whereas, I mean, look at the kind of the number of presses you see going back to Brooklyn Book Festival. Everybody's like the scale. Everybody is able to generate really good publishing rosters despite not being the top of the tier one agency, and I and there's just more dynamic. So that's my only reason to be honest. And also there seems to be momentum right now with my writing, especially with the chap book coming out, and I felt like it's a nice time to capitalize on that. I've never actually haven't made my decision about living in New York for good if I want to move back home at any point. The general election result doesn't help, but you know.
>> Brian: It's not too much better over here.
>> Meher: Yeah, that's what I tell you. But New York conditions you to think it is.
>> Brian: Well, well, hopefully in another year. That's a topic for another day. Yeah. Okay, so now we can shift to Asian American writing. Is there a like a prominent feeling or is it kind of secondary? Yeah, I guess. Is there an identity that stands out for you guys?
>> Sharmaine: I don't know about identity, but I know that for me there is pressure from family. I think like the stereotypical Asian American generally goes into STEM. And so when I chose to make...
>> Brian: Like what's the ROI on this on this career path?
>> Sharmaine: Essentially, Yeah. When I chose to go down this career path, I had a lot of backlash from family members, not specifically my parents, because I think my parents have realized that I do what I want (laughter), but like I have family members who will actively call me or like, say, Oh, look at my friend's daughter who's also Asian American. She's going to Harvard to become a doctor, blah blah blah... and I'm like, Okay, this doesn't do much for me. And I think for them they don't see where my career is heading right now because it's a slow process. Because writing is sometimes a slow process and with careers in medical or marketing business, you can become big, fast, like at 23 my cousin, right now she's getting all these big promotions in HR and what not. And so right now they see as if I'm the one who's behind.
>> Brian: Yeah, and while I'm writing... like I have so many professors at Sarah Lawrence, that's just said honestly, it's better if you don't get published really. And like and really like whether or not you agree with that, like the take home message is that it is a process. And, like even for someone like my parents, my parents are extremely supportive of me writing. And even for them, it was difficult to communicate at times just like yes, this takes a lot like they'd be like, what's the status of this? Or like, you know, your book or like blah, blah, blah. And it's like and you get kind of you feel like you start to feel like a failure when you're like, It's not to time yet, Like, you know what I mean? It's hard. So, yeah, now I'm glad you brought that up. Now we're looking at you, Crystal, with your flowing what does that teak? Turquoise?
>> Crystal: Turquoise turned teak.
>> Sharmaine: Hair is what they're talking about.
>> Crystal: How does the Asian American identity and for my writing?
>> Brian: And how much? Or, like, you know, do you come to writing with an identity? Or I'm Crystal?
>> Crystal: I think my whole presentation is pretty antithetical to what an Asian woman is supposed to look like.
>> Brian: So you do feel that, though, like, is that like something that you carry with you? Or is it something that you've reconciled?
>> Crystal: I think it's a sort of double consciousness type of feeling where it's like you're aware of it, and you're living in between identities or going in the hyphen type of thing. Although we have done away with a hyphen I think on a grammatical level.
>> Brian: Is that like Oxford?
>> Crystal: I've personally done away with it (laughter).
>> Sharmaine: Webster has done away with it.
>> Crystal: Yes, they have.
>> Brian: Oh wow.
>> Crystal: And it's funny because I'm reading Alexander Chee’s Book, How to Write an autobiographical novel. And so the cover is like Red and Matte, and there's like a little picture of him on a photo booth.
>> Brian: I love matte covers.
>> Crystal: Yeah. It's like a great book...
>> Brian: Crystal almost reached for my book when she was like, Oh, that's Brian's book that's not what I'm looking for. (laughter)
>> Crystal: No but it's an ARC. And so it's a matte red cover with a little picture of him, like it's like a little photo booth picture of him, just like one person. And then I think I was out the other night with It was Sharmaine and we also went into a photo booth and we took a couple pictures. And then I think I got home. And then I just, like, placed that picture on top of the book... on top of his picture. So it looks like the three of us were on the cover, and that just gave me kind of like a quaint feeling of like what if it were me. What if you were a picture of me? And the title essay that was one of the essays because it's a collection of essays is how to write an autobiographical novel. And I think one of the feelings that I carry with me that he himself has voices like... It's like a Prescribed, like 100 steps, How to write an autobiographical novel. And in one of them it's like, I think it's voicing a sentiment of like, you know, if you don't write it, then it's going to, like your novel is cheating on you with another person. It's the desk off another writer in the same city as your Or maybe you like across the state in another city. And it's like this roving idea of like, you know, you possessing your idea. Or is it just going to, you know, fly away from you?
>> Brian: Yeah, well, I mean, you know, this is under a different umbrella, but at the same time, I will say I have had very strange moments where I read other books where they're doing something that is so close to what I was doing or like a little detail that's like, strangely synonymous with something that I added in my book, and it's very weird.
>> Meher: I had that experience with Fatimah Asghar's book "If They Should Come for Us". When I read it last year, or was in this year... and I swear to God there were at least 10 instances or 10 moments or imagery, because again, the book is, Fatimah is South Asian American from Pakistan and writes a lot about femininity, which is what I do. And there were moments where I swear, if you woke me up at you know 2 a.m. in the morning and delirious and read Fatimah's line and said, Is that something you wrote? And I would have said, probably and would have gone back to sleep. And there was one poem which hit the exact narrative that I was hitting with another poem and that I had to literally go to that poem's folder and say, remove or edit because it would seem like it had already been written. But it seemed so similar. I mean Fatimah is a great writer, I'm not saying I'm there when it comes to writing. But it's interesting because which brings us back to the collective of experiences, right?
>> Brian: I was going to say, like some would call it serendipity. Some we'll call it leaks in The Matrix. Give us a call and give us your opinion. (laughs) Who fucking knows? It is really strange. When I was reading The Art of Fielding by Chad Harbach... I don't know if you guys have ever heard this book. It was like, really big and came out in 2010 and I corresponded with him about this because, like, I was just so floored by this. But he was writing about someone who has, like, a short stop at college who, like it was having psychological, like performance anxiety issues like on the field. And I'm like, That's in my book. A young woman and the Dean or something like someone who is like the director of the college. I forget what his position was there, they have a really they have, like, this relationship that was similar to Julia character in my novel on her father and they shared a book, Moby Dick. In former iterations of my novel. They shared a book. There's a room number that was the same. I don't know. It's very strange. And I was like, emailing. It was like, What the fuck is going on? (laughs)
>> Crystal: I mean, I feel like there's this thing I've been tossing around in my head, like this sort of question or theory of, like, inheritance. Inheriting certain...
>> Brian: I know what you're talking about. I think there's like, like even on a really, like, almost karmic bullshit level, Like when I was younger, I literally thought that being an Italian jew was like some sort of deep seated conflict (laughter) like seriously, like I like, I thought like unlike maybe, like a genetic level, I was just like, Well, they go like this Italian side of me is so like, visceral and like, lusty or whatever. And like this Jewish side is so like guilty and just, like, very like, you know, neurotic, you know? I don't know.
>> Meher: You must be great fun at parties.
>> Brian: Yeah (laughs). I do tricks.
>> Meher: I do have a question I have for Crystal. When you spoke about inheritance and also this idea, Do you feel like as Asian American writers or just writers who are writing Asian stories and that there seems to be a collective of experiences? You said the idea of like losing the story or like letting it fly away. There's another Asian or Asian American writer who might catch it and bring it out before you do. So doesn't that feel a little strange? Because all of us have, I mean all of us, But within our own respective communities in our own respective are bringing our formative years, we have very similar experiences, like we have experiences with families that we would like exchange over tea, and it would be very similar. But then, if you don't happen to it at the right time, if we don't take that narrative and if you don't flush out the story from it, some other writer would and it feels like in this in a community of solidarity, you're also like slightly competing with each other to get your story out before somebody else does from your own community, because again, as traditional literature goes or contemporary literature, there seems to be only so much space for Asian stories or Asian American stories have to get yours out before another Asian American writer takes a go at it.
>> Brian: Now that's interesting. And I felt less like that because I wasn't writing a deaf novel, quote unquote, you know. But like I did, there was also a part of me that was like, I wonder what, like other deaf stories have not been revealed just because, like they don't have as clear of the path as like other people, I guess sometimes.
>> Crystal: Like competing deaf novels?
>> Brian: No. I just don't think that they I don't think there's as easy of an avenue for deaf folks. We met someone named Raymond Luczak who runs Handtype Press and he's publishing all these deaf authors. But I think deaf authors are just coming into the mainstream now, like you know, which is good, but it's been a long time coming.
>> Crystal: But anyway, the question was, I have to make authorship of my ideas before some other person as an Asian American? Before they kind of like do a Harry Potter thing where they steal my memory.
>> Meher: To put it crudely... Here's an example, going back to Fatimah Asghar's book, when I came up with my manuscript idea and I was working toward it, I had a cover in mind. If this becomes a book, this is the kind of cover I want. Fatimah has a very similar cover, which I found out about.
>> Brian: You got to get in contact with this person.
>> Meher: No, I mean, I'm hoping I run into Fatimah one day and we get to talk about this. But, you know, the cover for if they should come for us was very like 80% similar to the cover I had in mind. And it was like, Oh, my God, like if the forces of the universe were different, if I was older and if I got here sooner, if this idea had come to me sooner, maybe that would have been my book. But that cover. But it's silly because, like in that situation, maybe this book that I'm working on would have never come to me when I say so.
>> Brian: Yeah. Those are the ultimatums that you feel?
>> Meher: Yeah. I wonder if you feel like you need to take, like, a quick ownership of your experience before.
>> Crystal: It's hard to say. I mean, I think, like I would like to think that people move at their own pace in life. Some could get a book deal at 25 others 35 or 45.
>> Brian: But for you, it also sounds like for you because, like, it sounds like you're really maybe not consciously or not, But you're subverting some of the like, you know, assumptions about what it's like to be an Asian American or something like that. Is that what you were alluding to earlier? Or is it more just you don't think about it as much? Or none of the above?
>> Crystal: I would like to go back to my answer where it's like it's living two lives. It's living the life of Asian but also being American at the same time.
>> Brian: Is it divided up between like, family and like, like friends or something? Or is it more just general?
>> Crystal: It's qualified I guess. Like if I'm walking down the street, there is no chance where I can confuse myself like and how I present myself in the public sphere or how people perceive me and I know how I'm looked at, like, every single second of the day. And that will inform myself as a woman that informs myself as a Chinese American. And, you know, if life bleeds into art then that, also informs my heart
>> Brian: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. That's the, I think I got my answer. That's good. That's good. That's good. Yeah. Okay, cool. It's it. Sounds like it. Like it just permeates that double consciousness, like, permeates your art like, Yeah, Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I think I think we're good. I'm gonna do a closer. (laughter)
So Okay, that's it for today's episode. If you like what you heard, please subscribe in review on whichever platform you're listening, you can get in touch with us on Twitter, Facebook & Instagram @AnimalRiotPress or through our website animalriotpress.com. This has been the 23rd episode of the Animal Riot Podcast with me, your host, Brian Birnbaum, and featuring Crystal Yeung, Sharmaine Ong, and Meher Manda and we're produced by Katie Rainey, without whom we'd be merely three of Shakespeare's 1000 monkeys banging on a typewriter .